A Arte como Terapia

episode: 14 title: "Ep. 14 - A Arte como Terapia, com Nati Valle" pub_date: "Mon, 01 Jul 2024 05:00:00 +0000" original_language: english source_audio: "03866743.mp3"

Hello, welcome. I'm Rui and this is the The Wack Podcast. This week I will start my conversation with Nathie Valle, Art Therapist. Nathie dedicates her life to helping us enhance ours. As she draws my attention, and well, right at the beginning of the conversation, therapy does not exist only to solve problems, but also to make us live our potential. She addresses our existence in a holistic way, in which everything matters and everything is interconnected. I loved this conversation and I hope you do too. Follow my conversation with Nathie. Hello Nathie, good morning. Good morning. Welcome to The Wack Podcast. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you here. And so, as you know, I got to know you through Jenny, who told me that she has been doing therapy with you, Art Therapy with you, for a year now. I was super interested and excited because I think there are a number of topics that really make sense. But before that, I would like to ask you a question, which is, have you already found out what Jenny's problem is? Well, it's like this, I think we all have a lot of problems here, don't we? And we will find out throughout life. It never ends to find out. Exactly, but I had to ask you this question, because Jenny is usually the first person to hear the podcast, right on Monday, so she will have the opportunity to call me, let's meet tomorrow on Monday, which is always great. Look, but it's a pleasure to have you here. I have a number of questions that I think are important for everyone, because we have an industry, we have a work area, which is very peculiar in many things, and I think your experience, your knowledge, can help in some way. But before we get there, I would like to ask you the simplest thing, which is, what is Art Therapy? And what is the difference to the more conventional ones? Well, I think the main difference is that in the more conventional therapies, we usually work a lot more with the verbal expression, right? And within Art Therapy, in addition to working on the verbal expression, we also work on all the possibilities of artistic expressions, so I can work with the therapeutic writing, with the intuitive painting, with the body expression, music, music therapy, there is a range of possibilities for us to bring more tools to these messages of the unconscious, because it is very true that speech, verbal expression, is a tool that we are used to manipulating, in quotes, since we learn to speak, right? So many things that are in this field of the unconscious, that are in this field of psychism, which is a magical world, we can't reach with the word. The word can't explain a lot of things. So we have these other tools within Art Therapy that will look for symbols, that will look for dream analysis, that will look for a whole bunch of images to be able to decode this message that comes from the unconscious. This seems super interesting to me, because actually different people have different relationships with these different arts and the different senses that we have, right? Some are more sensitive to sound, others to images, and do you notice this difference in what you can take away from people depending on the art you use? Without a doubt. In fact, every artistic expression also has a specific function, right? It is very important to mention here that it is not necessary for the person on the other side to be an artist to practice Art Therapy. In fact, it is even good that the technique is not present, because, as well as the speech that we have always manipulated, a plastic artist, for example, who has a drawing technique or who has a painting technique, when he goes to work in Art Therapy, he also ends up having layers. Of course, it is always possible for us to reach symbols and things that come from the unconscious, despite the technique, or rather, beyond the technique, right? But it is not necessary, it is not necessary to know how to draw, to paint, to sing, to play anything, to do Art Therapy. In fact, that is exactly why you just said. We are used to manipulating speech from the beginning. An artist, a musician, will learn to hide his insecurities through other ways. In other words, the fact that we all manage or experience other techniques will help us not to manipulate, and you can, as a therapist, help those who do not manage to find the problems, right? That is more or less my goal. It is interesting, Rui, that both in your question, which was a joke at the beginning of our conversation about the problem, and now that you have used that word again, I wanted to make a parenthesis here. It is very interesting to observe that when we talk about therapy, most people think that therapy is to solve problems, right? But, in fact, it is not only that. Of course, it is very common that people, I joke that people come to therapy with the house on fire, right? So, our first job is to put out the fires. And then, later, we will fix the wiring and the plumbing that brings all the problems there, right? But there comes a phase of therapy that is amazing, that when we already have this... the house more tidy, let's say, we can work on the power of the person, we can enhance the virtues, we can improve in many aspects, and not necessarily working on the problem. On the contrary, it is even much more effective when we work on the person's virtue. And it is super possible and recommended to do therapy to work on virtues as well. Yes, I understand, and what you are saying is true, but when I say problem, I am not talking so much about a serious trauma issue. The truth is that every day we have problems in the perspective of issues. We have things, we have challenges, and sometimes I think that the real difficulty we have is to deal with these challenges in the same way we look at them. Because you can have a problem, you can have a difficulty, you can have a challenge, you can have an opportunity. And maybe the same thing, the same situation in your life, the name you give it, or the way you approach it, can make a big difference, right? And it's like you say, ok, when we get to a therapy, the word itself, therapy, means something, solving something that is not right. But we don't need to solve or try to solve something that is not right, only when it is very bad. We can try to get in a little bit earlier, even with a routine. In fact, I think health is the main example. It's a good idea to solve the problem, for those who are listening, I'm just making air quotes, but to solve the problem, but before preparing it. That is, to prepare so that the problem, if it arises, is not so serious, right? Yes, of course. And it's just like you said, Poco, the truth is that we all have problems, right? So it's always a good time to start therapy. Yes, without a doubt. A while ago I saw a short video, an interview, I know it was an actress from Hollywood, I'm not sure, I think it was Priyanka something, I don't remember her name, in which she said, I've been doing therapy all my life, I've been doing therapy for many years, and someone asked her, so you haven't solved it yet? No, no, I'm not here to solve it, it's to stay with me forever. And I think maybe that's the big taboo that we still have to solve, right? The way we look at therapy, and a while ago I had a friend, we were talking and he was going through a difficult phase, and he was suggested to do therapy, and the answer was, but I'm not crazy. And I thought, what do you mean? We're not in that world anymore, we're not in that time anymore, but you still live that taboo a lot, right? Yes, the stigma around health and the experience of mental illness is still very big, especially around the experience of mental illness, many people still believe that people with serious experience of mental illness can be aggressive and everything, but in fact the statistics show exactly the opposite, it is much more recurrent, unfortunately, that people with experience of serious mental illness suffer aggressions than promote aggressions. So it's a stigma that needs to be deconstructed in the head of society, and it's also interesting to refer to these two sides, right? Not only in mental health, but I think in general health. We start a therapeutic process, whether psychic or physical, it's always nice to think that we can work on preventive health, and not wait for a physical, psychic, social problem to appear, to deal with the issue, right? So I think that's the core point of this deconstruction that needs to be done, we work on preventive health, and not stay there remedying when a big problem appears. And how do we change the mindset to start thinking more about it? Look, I think it starts with this perception that there is a technical term, which is, we are all neurotic, right? It's true, we are all neurotic. Of course, neurosis can be more developed and become an experience of mental disorder, but the truth is that we all live with neurosis, right? So to think that we all have issues related to interpersonal relationships, how much we need to improve our communication, for example, and to think that, besides everything, therapy is an internal conversation. I usually joke here, a lot of people say, I don't need therapy, and so on, and when I hear someone say that, I always imagine, poor people who live with this person, because probably there is someone who is doing therapy to deal with this person and thinks he doesn't need therapy. Yes, because the more we are inside our heads, and there are people who get along better with each other than others, but we are all in our heads and sometimes it's not easy to deal with the thoughts we have. But tell me something, we talk a lot about mental health, in a generic way, on day 2, but I may be wrong, but what I feel is, sometimes we talk about less, sometimes we talk about more. And my most technical question, I imagine it's more technical, is when do you consider mental illness? I mean, when do you... What are the phases you find, maybe a small disorder, a small imbalance, or when do you manage to define a difficulty or a more serious problem that you can call mental illness? Look, Rui, this is a difficult question to answer, because there are already many lines of thought within the world of psychology, let's say, that will put this answer in a different way. Particularly, I like to say that the experience of mental disorder, and this term I'm using is interesting, because the term itself, mental illness, reinforces the stigma. So, when we think of an individual who is having a mental disorder experience, we don't reduce this person to a mental patient. Even this term, here in Portugal, is used in a very common way. I worked in four psychiatric hospitals with art studios for people with a mental disorder experience who live there, who are interns, and this language is very common within the hospitals, and everyone says, oh, such and such a patient. And how much does this reduce a person? While if we think of an individual who is going through a mental disorder experience, it changes completely. And this introduction in the answer is very important for us to be able to realize when the mental disorder is evidenced. In my opinion, it is evidenced when it starts to interfere with the person's life. So, when I have an emotional issue, when I have a psychological issue that gets in the way of my life, that starts to limit me to do my day-to-day things, without a shadow of a doubt, it's time to seek help. And then the diagnosis, that is, when it goes from something that can happen to everyone to, in fact, a diagnosis, then it will depend a lot on many factors, especially on the type of professional and the quality of the professional who is sought and who treats this person as well. It's a bit like, maybe compared to, I don't know what the term is in Portuguese, but OCD, Obstructive Compulsive Disorder, which is, if you have to have the shoes all right, ok, all right. Now, if every day before leaving the house you have to turn off and on the light 34 times, that is, you have that point, I, for example, have a bit of OCD, certain things have to be perfectly aligned, but it doesn't interfere with my life. From the moment it starts to be a problem, it's time to seek help. That is, it ends up being very individualized and it ends up being also, which is perhaps also one of the difficulties of maintaining mental health, which is, it has to start from me. I have to realize that I have a problem or that this is complicating my life, because most of us don't go before. Exactly, exactly. But it is also super important that we pay attention to the people around us, right? Because, many times, the person who is going through a mental health experience, precisely because of the characteristics of the symptom, won't be able to realize that he's going through that. So, it's extremely important to observe our own, right? The people around us and realize, wow, maybe this person's behavior is not different from what it always was. So, what's going on there, right? And having this empathic look and observation with the other is also very important. And do you think there are some... I know each case is particular, but do you think there are some common points that we can be aware of? Speaking essentially for those who are not close, right? Husbands, wives, children, even those who are not close to us. Do you think there are some common alert systems? It's also a very difficult question to answer, because it also depends a lot on the individuality of each person, right? So, trying to answer your question in the best possible way, I like to think that the ideal thing is to observe if that behavior is very different from what it always was. So, if a person who has always been very introverted, quieter, more observant, suddenly starts to have a very extroverted behavior, very exuberant, right? It may be that... Yeah, but what happened? What is the context? And it's interesting for us to think, Rui, that many aspects can influence within this type of behavior, right? So, for example, speaking exactly of the marriage market, a woman who is in contact with the bride's archetype, this archetype in the sense of this symbol, because the bride is an archetypal image, she is a symbol. I remember when I got married and I wore the bride's dress, it's an experience, right? We leave who we are, right? I stopped being Naty and I became the bride. It's something like that, it's an entity that appears there, right? So, imagine. Imagine that a woman is going through this prenuptial period, that moves, moves with the person. So, it is necessary to observe the context of that person's life too, because I can be a very calm person, very calm, never had issues with anxiety, for example, my whole life, the prenuptial period is a typical characteristic of that moment in life that the person is going through, right? So, it doesn't mean that the person is developing a mental disorder experience, she's just living a context of life that promotes this kind of behavior, right? So, you realize how this being attentive to the other and common things, in fact, we need to open this box and unfold, right? Because there are really a lot of things that can influence this context. Yes, because it's really like you said, the example you gave at the beginning was surprising to me, because I wasn't thinking on that side, which is the difference of behavior can even be for a behavior technically better, that is, the person who is calmer suddenly becomes super exalted, exalted in an enthusiastic and exuberant sense and has a series of behaviors, it can also be a sign that something is not right and maybe is there compensating or disguising something, right? Yes, without a doubt, we have a term... related to a mental disorder which is mania people with bipolarity can have phases of mania and phases of depression and mania is precisely this exacerbated happiness wanting to do everything, wanting to participate in everything it's an overflowing excitement so it doesn't necessarily have to be a person who is in bed and doesn't want to do anything the other side can also be even because it depends on the context, as you said, it can make sense if a close person disappears, if there is a serious situation maybe being in bed and crying every day is normal within that particular context it may eventually stop being normal, but that's another story but in a phase within the context, things make sense the question here is to be aware of what sounds strange what seems out of context yes, yes mourning, for example going through mourning it's natural that when a person is going through mourning they go through what we call a depressive adjustment so that person is not in depression they are going through a depressive adjustment which is completely natural of what happens and a very interesting thing about the marriage market and brides and everything else is that it is also very common for brides to go through mourning because, in fact, when we start to imagine and stop being the single woman to be the married woman this single woman dies it's a part of us that dies so we go through mourning there's even a book that people who are deaf won't be able to see the cover but it's this book here, it's called Xi it's a very old book there are also new editions this one I got in a Sebo and it says exactly that it tells the myth of Aphrodite Psyche which is a Greek myth and which speaks precisely about this mourning that the woman goes through when saying goodbye to the damsel that is, the single woman to become a married woman this is something that is present in our collective unconscious that is, we don't even need to be thinking about it to feel it this is something that happens naturally so yes, there may be the phase of a lot of excitement and enthusiasm with the proximity of marriage but there may also be this phase like, there's a part of me that's dying and I need to say goodbye to her but in a way, everything in our life you go through highs you can't be in highs all your life as you can't be in lows you have different phases when you started talking about this I identified myself right away not in such a deep point but I had brides who told me once or twice that after receiving an album as it was the last thing they told me, now it's over the wedding itself is over the party is over and they receive those things with enthusiasm and it happened to me once or twice that it was the opposite it's understandable because they are people who lived that phase we're talking about a year sometimes more in which it's a super exciting phase always with the vibrations not always good but there's always a stress there's always an emotional part very excited and exasperated and when it's over you say, now it's over and there's a period of compensation a certain state in a depressive part which is very interesting but I hadn't thought about it in such a deep point which also makes sense there's a big change this introduction was very interesting because we touched on a series of things that I wanted to talk to you about but I wanted to ask you about this world this area and from what I understood you come from a classical therapy study for this area in which sense? therapy, yes the part of therapy yes, actually I started there actually exactly I started studying art therapy in the sense of helping me when I started my first post-graduate in art therapy still in Brazil I worked with something else my basic education my first education is in communication and marketing and I worked with that I used to say that I had many lives I worked in the financial market I had many lives and I worked with marketing at the time I was super good and I also like this area a lot but I lived with anxiety so I had anxiety attacks in fact the oldest memory I have of an anxiety attack I was about 6 or 7 years old and it was because of a math test so I felt all the symptoms, accelerated heart rate hyperventilation and it was already anxiety so I lived with anxiety all my life and I started to realize I always liked to write and I started to realize that when I was in front of a blank page it seemed that little by little I was able to free myself from that uncomfortable feeling and when the words were unreachable I went to drawing, painting and everything else and then I decided to start studying this simply to help me to understand me so life happened I moved to Portugal I've been living here for 6 years and when I got here I did another post-graduation in art therapy but I still worked with other things and I started to help people in a social way I helped people who couldn't pay for therapy because it was a hobby it wasn't my main job and it turned our life upside down and I realized damn what am I going to do now all my marketing contracts and business consulting all fell to the ground and I thought what am I going to do with my life and I remember that in a phone call with a friend he said well Nath, I think it's time for you to really turn the key you already have two post-graduations why not? and I said it's going to take a long time for me to live from this and he said if you think it's going to take a long time I think it's better to start now and I said it's true and the good thing is that unfortunately the pandemic context was also a very favorable context for my work in this area because after all everyone was in need of help in this field so I don't know two months later three months I don't remember very well but it was a very short period I already had my schedule full and I turned completely I started to produce content about it and in the meantime about neuroscience and behavior so I dived even deeper because I really believe that there is no separation between body and mind so all our psychic processes influence our body chemically just like the opposite is also true so I decided to dive even more in neuroscience and I'm completely in love with this world it's a fascinating world but complex I read a lot about neuroscience and neurophilosophy one of them was by Antonio Damasio I don't know if you know Sentir e Saber reading that book Sentir e Saber was a mix of two things first, the man writes in a wonderful way his portuguese is absolutely wonderful I got to the end I realized zero zero of what he had to say it was everything in his case, he is a neuroscientist but he is also a philosopher mixing the two things that are not particularly easy putting them together for me it was zero I finished that book and said you are the greatest I don't have the brain to understand you but well I read some other things I read the focus of I was missing the name the father of the term emotional intelligence Daniel Goleman exactly Daniel Goleman I loved it but they are very dense books and for what I needed for what was my interest they were too technical too scientific and I reduced a little but it's really a fascinating topic and now going back I think very interesting both areas because I think all of them focus not focus, all of them are absolutely complementary to our existence including the professional part the therapy for our inner well-being then the part of consulting and understanding how money works which is one of the most important in our day to day and most people don't understand communication and marketing are the two essential for your day to day as a person but also for your company together with this neuroscience and behavior and behavior you literally want to understand us your goal is to become a villain and conquer the world maybe but they are very interesting areas that complement each other in an impressive way and it's interesting that Rui because really all of these areas that I studied and of course it wasn't a Machiavellian plan I didn't plan that but really life took me and today I can look back and realize that there is a bunch of knowledge that are without any doubt a plus for my personal life and for what I deliver to my clients both in the field of therapy and in the field of mentoring because I also have this journey in my work where I help people look at the professional part in a more holistic way in the total sense of the word in the sense of realizing that because there it is money will affect our mental health bad communication affects all our relationships and our relationships are directly linked to our self-esteem and how we love ourselves a lot of people talk on the internet that self-esteem you have to love yourself first you have to develop your own love how do you do that? it's very hard to love yourself if you don't realize that there are other people loving you so let me interrupt you for a second because I think that's an amazing point and it really makes sense we can't do it alone but besides this external issue for everything we can exaggerate but we need it for everything but I think there is another point that complements this how do we start to gain self-esteem and for me you fulfill your word with yourself if you decide to wake up early if you wake up you are fulfilling your word almost as if you divide your self in two entities this is my will and this is my action and when they complement each other it's another step for your self-esteem no doubt, Rui I would go deeper I say that self-esteem is directly linked to our values and beliefs so and of course when you talk about fulfilling your word it's directly linked to our values so for example what we said at the beginning about the importance of therapy even without having a big problem to be solved it's extremely important for our self-esteem to know our values and our beliefs and the truth is that many people don't even know their own values and can't even realize what they really believe what do you believe to be? because if we stop to think we are what we believe to be and we believe to be what we are you know? but this sounds like a fish in the water and it is because when we think like this what do you believe to be? usually the first thought that comes to the person's mind is what she would like or what she thinks she should be and this is not what she believes to be so therapy will look for this place of understanding a clarity a sharpness of what are your values and what are your beliefs so that you can be consistent with these values and beliefs not only in your actions but also in your choices when we think, for example in the choice of our life partners in a romantic relationship in a partner, in an intimate friend in short these people we choose to accompany our life if we don't know what our values are in a very clear way it may be that we connect with people who have values very different from ours and this is a serious problem for our life because our life will become a constant negotiation because if I relate to a person with values similar to mine the chance of me getting frustrated and hurt in this relationship is huge so self-esteem goes a lot in this place of being able to understand what are your values and beliefs and be consistent with them yes, deep down you are talking about the definition of our identity there is a well-known term fake it till you make it which is an exaggeration but it has some truth you can say I would like to be like this but I am not but I will interpret my identity is this and now we take small steps to get there this is the person I would like to be one day or to become we are not yet so in a way we are pretending but we are pretending in a perspective of taking those steps that will get us there is this more or less your interpretation? yes without a doubt I think training is extremely important for us to develop an ability whatever it is and it is true that we can fake it till we make it it is this term but I like to think that there is a previous question to this process of pretending to be till you make it that few people do which is why do I want to become? and it is interesting it is not why it is why because when we look for the why of our actions we can even find many answers that will help us to understand the roots of the problem where it is coming from because when we think why we usually look back but when we think of the why we are looking to the here and now why do I want to become a person that has these habits what do I want to feel? what do I want to achieve? what is the secondary gain in becoming this that I am pretending to be I don't know if you have heard about Jim Rohn who was Tony Robbins' mentor I think he died a few years ago but I really like that he has a series of pragmatic and interesting sentences and his book is very interesting but there is a part where he talks about his mentor we are talking about 1930 1940 a long time ago maybe a little bit more but the mentor says to him Jim, why don't you define as a goal to become a millionaire? and he says, it sounds like a good idea like a million dollars, that would be cool and he says, no, I am not talking about the money you can lose it all if you want but for the person you need to become to have that million dollars and then he develops this idea and then there is a question that I had to ask about your content which is the question of anxiety which is that constant search for the result and this brings these two things together you can define your identity you can define what you want to be what you want to be one day without being anxiously waiting to become you at that point but appreciate the path of the person you are going to become until you get there this is a bit esoteric and super abstract but I think it is an interesting thing I try to live like this it is not easy talk to us and look inside and think a little bit about why and for what I think it's super important. Without a doubt. Imagine, when you talked about this example of becoming a millionaire we can think in a very practical way with this example, which is the following I can earn millions of euros and become a millionaire overnight Now, if this happens, I will become a millionaire overnight but I will not have the skills necessary to manage this money if I had built this one million euros So that's what you're saying, what good is it if I get anxious for a result but if I had a magic button that I could press and have that result here and now, without having to go through the process I would probably completely dispense with this result in seconds because I would not have the skills necessary to support, to sustain and to develop even more So, how many stories can we, in a very quick search, realize of people who became millionaires overnight because they earned millions of euros, for example and a few years later, maybe not even that they were poor and indebted because they did not have the skills necessary to manage this money to make this money worth it, it did not develop until then And you even have this example, a little less momentary but that even gives a better notion of it which is football players and athletes in general Most football players and athletes of that level, NBA 90% of their performance they earn between 20 and 30 and a few and I think 83 or 84% of them end up in poverty which I think is even more important because it is not so momentary Apparently they grow, but you earn all that money in such a short period plus this specific time of your life between 20 and 30 and we are trying to understand who we are and what we are doing here and if you earn most of your income in this period you did not develop these skills to have so much money and then when that ends, there is usually a problem That is, going back a little bit, we have this question of identity and deciding what is our identity, what are we, what do we want to be how are we going to get there and the question you asked, for what? And that for what, I think it really defines everything because you can simply say, because I want to take care of my family and it's all right, or you can say, I want to be the next Elon Musk It's all right, but knowing why or for what makes a huge difference Do you really see that difference when people have that click in the stories and the consultancy you do? Yes, without a doubt, and it is very interesting and it is also very common to happen when we ask ourselves this question of why and we find out that in fact it was just to meet the expectations of others And it's a bit sad when it happens It happens a lot and to all of us To all of us, not necessarily in this place so broad to develop the personality, to become who we want to be but sometimes in small choices about how we express ourselves in the sense of how we dress, how we talk what kind of gadgets we have what kind of consumption we exercise in our lives when we stop to understand why I really like to do, still talking about the ability to manage well the financial resources I like to do an exercise that I find very healthy for the financial health of anyone I have the impulse to buy something So I take a deep breath and think I'll wait a week If in a week I think about this thing more times it's because I really want to buy this thing So besides asking myself why I want this thing usually we make the decision with emotion and then the brain is in charge of building a logical narrative for our decision that is already taken So it's not enough to just ask here I want to buy, I don't know, a new clothes My decision was made with emotion So my brain will think Wow, but you also work so hard, justifications But you work so hard, you deserve it Oh, but look, maybe there will be that party here or that meeting, or that wedding and that will be super useful and such And then I say, ok So let's live with this need for a week No one will die if they don't have new clothes in a week Let's live with it for a week If in a week I think about that clothes more times I think, ok, I think I really want that But what happens in 80% of the times is that the next day I don't even remember anymore It was just an impulse It was just, you know, sometimes an incentive that I don't even know where it came from to do that action and there would be my money, sweaty, right? For something I didn't even need Yes Look, you touched now on the part of money We've already touched a little bit but maybe we'll move a little bit because I know you're having that experience that you have in the financial market dealing with money and now also this consulting you do and even your holistic part of work I would like to put this I'll read you something that I imagine you'll recognize which is Do you know why our financial life has so much impact on mental health? One of the reasons is that we were taught since we were kids that making money is something that is exchanged for work and for the famous productivity and they hid, at all costs that money is what is exchanged for something that has value My question is Sorry, your text My question is Why do you think, in your opinion that it is so difficult to come to this conclusion that either selling or working for someone else all this is an exchange of value that requires you to be fair that if I'm selling you something my goal should be to satisfy a problem, a need that you have and that if the exchange was fair in relation to the value you will pay the value that I will ask happy to do it or, in the case of working for someone else you will do an interesting and exciting job that you are satisfied with and in the end you will receive an order that makes you feel valued Why do you think it is so difficult to feel this or at least to truly realize that this is a reality? Mainly because of what we were talking about in relation to the lack of awareness that most of us have in relation to our values and beliefs I like to tell the story of the cuckoo's egg Do you know the cuckoo? That bird from the clock? Oh, the cuckoo! Ok, I realized you said cuckoo Exactly Cuckoo The bird from the clock, right? When the clock strikes, it goes there and cuckoo, cuckoo I didn't know until a very short time ago that this bird was a species that really existed but it seems so And a very interesting feature of this bird is that it does not hatch its own eggs So what does it do? When it lays the eggs it takes the eggs from it and will hide them in the nest of another species of any bird So imagine that the Canary lady is there to hatch her eggs and suddenly a cuckoo is born in the middle of several canaries which is a very ugly bird So that horrible cuckoo is born in the middle of the canaries and she looks at it and thinks Well, it's my son, right? I hatched this egg I will take care of this son and she takes care of the cuckoo as she takes care of any other bird that was born from her eggs And why do I like this story? Because it's exactly what happens with our ideas How many cuckoo eggs do we hatch inside our heads believing they are our children that are our ideas that are our original ideas And this issue of money exchange for work is a big cuckoo egg that was implanted in our heads over time So it's very difficult to realize this first of all because of this because this idea was implanted in our heads and is reinforced with beliefs very connected to this lack of reflection that actually when we dedicate ourselves to a job what we are exchanging when dedicating ourselves to anything is the time of life It's not skill It's not knowledge I'm giving in exchange for that reward that can be a monetary reward it can be a personal satisfaction Anyway, it's the time of my life So how much is it worth my life? And why do I want to direct this time? At the same time the other side is also true So if I for example I'm a therapist and I need to develop any skill for example record and edit videos for social networks which is something I'm very dedicated to do So I went to learn because it's something I like video is also art so I went to learn but I could, for example, realize that I didn't agree with the validity of my time with the value of my time and that I needed to hire someone for that So if I look at the characteristics of that person if I see that she developed in that and that her work has value for me because it will save me time I will pay I'm asking with pleasure because I realize how much I'm managing to use my time of life which is scarce if we have a perception that our average today is 80 years 80 years goes by in a blink of an eye life goes by very fast so I think that's the point when we think about money exchange because what am I going to do with this money? why do I want this money? because if we stop to think I want to have a lot of money ok, but what's the point of having a lot of money if I don't have time of life to enjoy this money why do I want to spend this money? with what do I want to spend this money? because as my grandmother says the dog has no drawer so I won't take the money with me so I won't take the money it's super interesting some time ago I heard someone say we suffer from life dysmorphia which is in 25 years we would give everything we have to get back our health and the age we have today but we keep we keep constantly struggling and spending our time many times outside using it with things we don't value to save money when you can always get more money there are always ways to get more and sometimes not but I think it's the same as you said it's a principle so ingrained in our being in our world culture that you don't see an alternative you feel it's like this because it's always been like this because no one is different and those who are different are too different and it's a bit difficult in your suggestion or in your opinion what can we do to start in small steps working to change this mindset and this paradigm besides therapy it's a good first step how do you approach it in therapy what kind of tools do you think you can use to start in small steps for now this perception I think the foundation of therapy is the ability to ask the right questions to ask the right questions because the question I like to tell stories to make analogies and explain concepts because I admire Antonio Damasio a lot but I admire him a lot but I don't want to become a person like Antonio Damasio in terms of a language so sophisticated that people can't perceive what I say so I work with the desire for people to be able to perceive what I say and to answer your question I'm going to tell another story which is the story that happened in São Paulo in the 50s when the skyscrapers started to appear those very tall buildings with 20 floors the first ones a commercial building was being inaugurated and they put the elevators they inaugurated the building and they started to have complaints that the elevators were too slow it takes a long time to get from the ground to the 20th floor and they called the engineers to see how to make the elevator go faster so we need the elevator to go faster how to do that and the engineers said it's cutting-edge technology this elevator can't go faster so they thought what are we going to do so they called a creative and they thought let's call a creative to see if he can help us solve this problem and the creative sat in the hotel hall of the building and started to observe people going up and down the elevator he went up and down with the people a week later the manager of the building so how is it? I'm seeing you sitting there going up and down do you have a solution? he said yes all you need is to install a mirror inside the elevator and he said what do you mean a mirror? he said yes because you were asking the wrong question the question is not how you need to make the elevator go faster the question is how do people sit inside the elevator so install a mirror and that's it they installed a mirror inside the elevator and there were never more complaints because people were anxious to get into a metal box and stay there without having anything to do the time the elevator went up and down so after having the mirror people already arrived, already arranged already saw how it was brushed and when they realized, time goes by so that's the point I think therapy and how I approach these issues is observing mainly how the person feels and how she would like to feel and asking the right questions because the problem of the coconut egg, of the ideas that plant in our heads is that normally these ideas come with a very ready narrative very set up, you know that magic formula? for you to make money for you to have high performance you have to wake up at 5 in the morning and run I don't know how many kilometers and make morning pages you know, like my God, but every human being is a human being we have our unique DNA it's not for nothing so I think the main function of therapy is to look at the individual as an individual and that for each one of us these concepts will be different so we need to ask the right questions it's hard to continue after that because it's really everything, if you sum up the right questions be the ones that make us be the ones that we make ourselves because how many times do we actually stop and ask what do I want? and that's it, and it's a question that I don't know that I can answer in two times you have to answer once and live, and then answer again and live, and maybe you already answer differently because there it is, this is a process and our life here is a process our work is a process and we have to take advantage and live the process, but I think with the goal of being better every day, and it's not easy but it requires the right questions and the right answers well, moving a little now to this last phase let's go back a little to the specific part of marriage and our industry and I'll take advantage, it's two of the questions that I want to ask you, but essentially my question is we have an industry that with nine very rare exceptions works essentially isolated at most with micro-teams and most of those micro-teams are couples and this becomes very lonely and on the other hand part of our work has this contrast that is, we spend the working day at a party with 100, 150 people so we have a lot of contrast between the day-to-day of our work life my first question is what do you think this can cause in terms of our stability our balance, do you think there are questions that can be solved or do you think that What do you think you can learn from this contrast or even from the characteristics of our day-to-day isolation? Without a doubt. First, because, there it is, again we are going to look at the characteristics of each professional, right? For example, I am a professional who works a lot alone, right? In quotes. But I know that, within my personality, I need feedback in relation to my professional area. So, I think that this lack of feedback during the process, it can generate in the professional, in the marriage market, a veil, that is, a lack of clarity about expectations, right? Because you end up working in a very isolated period, for a long time, without this feedback. And then, you are working for the day that is one of the most important days of that couple's life, right? Of that person. And that is involved around a lot of expectation, right? So, this also increases the level of stress in relation to the delivery, right? And then, in the delivery, you are doing the delivery of a job that you spent there, maybe months preparing for that. And there is so much, and so many people, and so much stimulus happening, that the feedback of your work, on the day the marriage is happening, it is not even possible to be done with quality, with presence, right? Because, right? Imagine, it's always a rush and a lot happens. So, I think this, yes, can be a very delicate aspect for the mental health of the marriage professional, because of the lack of feedback along the process, of the high level of stress in relation to the expectation of such an important day for the clients. And this, not to mention what we said at the beginning of our conversation, which is, these clients are not in their, let's say, most perfect emotional balance, because they are also affected by the great expectation of a very important day in their life, right? So, yes, it is a very complicated market. And touching on that point, how do you think, because you really caught my attention on this point, which is super interesting, which is the question of our normal client, is a person, there are two people, who never live a normal situation. They live one of the most stressful, emotional and happiest situations. And this absolutely extraordinary and out of the ordinary state that they live is our normal. What is this archetype that you talk about? How can we deal with this? And what are the alarms that we have to have so that this doesn't affect us? So, first of all, a clear communication, right? In terms of, not only how you communicate with your client personally, but mainly in relation to all the contracts and budgets and things that you send and that designate the terms of what will be delivered, right? So, clear communication is of extreme importance. And then, one of the things that I always say that helps a lot are the principles of non-violent communication, right? Which are four very basic principles, right? So, the first thing is to be able to identify what you feel in front of what you do and also observe the other, right? The people around you. Being able to name what you feel, this part is very important and it's usually what people skip, right? So, what am I feeling here? I'm feeling angry, right? Because anger is a normal feeling, right? Although we try to deny it at all costs, right? In my day-to-day, when I look at my competitor, I can feel envy. It is important to name the feeling, right? Because envy happens, although it is another feeling that we try to deny all the time, it's a human feeling, right? So, because from this moment that we can name, we can express what we are feeling, both for our clients and for our work partners. And this expression, and then we go to the third step, right? It's from me. Do you realize, Rui? Because, imagine, I'm here to talk to you. And imagine that I feel bothered with something or sad with something you said. And I start my speech saying, Look, Rui, it's like this. You are a very incisive and very objective person. And when you talk like that, I feel very uncomfortable, and such, and such, and such. This way I communicated with you, will automatically make you start creating defenses. Unconsciously, because I started my speech saying, You this, you that, and you that other. So, the form of this communication is in the attack, it is in what is directed to the other. Now, it's completely different if I started my speech saying, Look, Rui, I'm feeling a little weird here, even a little sad, because I think our conversation went to a place that I think is unnecessary. I think we could do it another way and everything else. How can we, right? Can you help me with that? How can we improve our communication and such? I'm asking you for help. So, your subconscious, your unconscious, it already disarms all defenses, and the conversation flows to a much healthier place. And the fourth and last step, which is also of extreme importance, is to finish this speech with a clear request. So, here, bringing the example again. Look, Rui, I'm feeling sad with what you told me, because I dedicated myself here to be these hours talking to you, and I think it's not fair what you're saying. So, can you please observe this way of talking to me next time so that we can have a more coherent tone of voice in our work and everything else? A clear request. Do you see? I finish with a clear request. Because what most people do is deliver to the other the problem and he's the one who comes to solve the problem, right? Like, look, I think this is bad, but how do you solve it? How do you make it good? I know what I have to say. It's bad for me, right? So, I know what I have to say. So, I think communication is essential, but there it is. For us to be able to communicate well, we first need to understand what we're feeling, right? So... Well, it's what we're feeling, what we want, what the goal is, right? And tell me, do you think that... Or... What do you think... How am I going to ask you? What can we do as a community? This, by asking the question here to my side. What can we do to prevent this isolation? Or... What can be interesting to prevent this isolation? Or to be... To work on this sense of community that I'm doing. Do you think that a mentor, for example, do you think that mentors, in general, can help in that regard? And I ask this question in a more concise way. We have... We work alone, and we all have a huge amount of teaching and experiences, which then live only for us. And my way of thinking about this is, if we have such a large collective knowledge, why not put it together, so that we don't all have to fight with our heads and learn in the worst way? In other words, do you agree with me that a mentor and this sense of community can help in these difficulties that our work presents? Without a doubt, Rui. I think this initiative of yours, of creating the podcast, bringing these conversations... Because, imagine, if we are talking about community, what does a community do, in essence? It lives together. So, what can we do? Coexistence. And from this coexistence, the needs of the community will arise. So, yes, mentoring can be one of these needs, in the exchange of knowledge, maybe a conversation table for the exchange of experiences, events, in short, coexistence, whether it is physical, preferably, we live a lot in the virtual world, but if it is not possible due to the rush, let it be virtual, but that you can communicate, that you can live with each other and make this exchange. So, I think, yes, beyond teaching what we know, it is the best way to learn more and to be seen, and to know things and people around us. So, I always say that. I talk a lot, I really like to talk and I really like to spread the word about what I know. And there have been situations where some people have asked me, Wow, Nath, but you talk, you deliver the gold, in quotes, you talk so much and deliver the gold in your content, in interviews, in podcasts, in the lectures you give for free, and you deliver so much, aren't you afraid to deliver and your competition realize and such? And I say, absolutely, because what is mine, what is the knowledge that I have, it's not mine, actually, it's a knowledge that crosses me. So, the more I deliver this knowledge to the world, the more I exercise the opening of this flow that I am, so that more knowledge comes in. So, like that. And another thing, which is also something that I I realize a lot within the market of marriage, the pioneers. So, I have, I'm in the marriage market and I'm a pioneer in a method or in something and such. And then, for being successful, for being a pioneer in that, for being good at what I do, I start to observe other professionals kind of copying what I'm doing, isn't it? And then, what's the point of me getting annoyed with this behavior? Like, people, if there are people copying what you're doing, it's a sign that you're on the right track, it's a sign that you're leading a movement. So, like that. And the good news is that, once again, we are individuals, we are unique. So, like that. Cognitive capital is something that no one can plagiarize. What we know, the way we do it, our personality, the identification that another person is there with the same values and the same beliefs, connects with what we are, is implausible. There's no such word. How do you say it? It's impossible to copy. It's impossible to copy. Exactly. I made up the word. That's it. It's impossible to copy. It's impossible. So, like that. Personality, being authentic, authenticity and coexistence is what develops any community. And with that, I thank you very much for this conversation, Nati. It was extraordinary. Really. I don't know what else to say because I'm still here trying to digest everything we talked about and I think there's so much important, so much interesting stuff that I think it's possible that one day I'll invite you again because I think we still have a few more hours of conversation. But, look, thank you very much. I know you're going to help a lot of people with these answers. I'm absolutely sure. You're already helping me. And, by the way, since you're not really in our wedding community, where are the people who want to know more about you? Where can they find you? Website? Instagram? Where do you go? Well, on Instagram it's easy to find me. My account is nativale with two Ls N-A-T-I-V-A-L-L-E and there's nativale.com, which is my website. There I also have all the information about my work. And, Rui, I thank you. It was a great pleasure to be here and have this chat, relaxed, light, about a market that I think it's very important to realize what are the peculiarities and this careful look because, in fact, I think the core point of our conversation is to realize that you work for a very special day in people's lives and these people are not in their normal states, let's say, and that this isolation and this pressure, the seasonality of your work also requires this care with the mental health of the professional who works in such a beautiful way to build an important day in other people's lives. You are marked in the history of a person's life. So I think this is very beautiful, in fact. And it was a great pleasure to be here. You can call me whenever you want. I'll be back with pleasure. And that's it. Thank you very much. Thank you, Will. And see you next time. Kisses. We have reached the end of this episode. And if you liked it, I ask you to subscribe to the podcast. And see you next week.