"Cake Design is a Labor of Love"

episode: 41 title: "Ep. 41 - "Cake Design is a Labor of Love", with Julie Deffense" pub_date: "Mon, 09 Feb 2026 07:00:00 -0100" original_language: english source_audio: "6e2c08f8.mp3"

So, Julie, welcome to the podcast, it's a pleasure to have you here, and I'm going in strong on this first question because it's the most important one for me, that is, how do people have the courage to eat your cakes, and when they do so, do you feel the urge to hit them? No, I think I would only have that urge if they didn't eat it, because I remember in the very beginning, I used to cry on the way home because I was like, so, you know, it's such an exhausting and emotionally charged experience, not only the creation and all the months of planning and preparation, but then, you know, you finally get to the day and you deliver the cake and that's it, like, it's a moment in time and then that's it, and so the first couple of cakes I delivered all those years ago, I remember sitting in the car just like sobbing, and my husband, Jack, was like, oh my goodness, what's happening? But no, it brings me a lot of joy to see people eat my cake and enjoy the cake and appreciate, you know. I'm assuming it's still a weird thing, is it not? Because your cakes are absolutely beautiful, amazing, they are really works of art, and as you say, I believe in, I know a few cake designers, so I know how much labor-intensive, how much hours, how many hours are in the process, so I'm assuming it's still a bit weird seeing that destroyed so easily or in fast, no? For me, it is, as a photographer. Well, I mean, I think that's why it's so important to, like, I really enjoy the process of educating my clients, like all the steps and all the things that they should remember when they're talking about the cake. I mean, you can relate it to everything in the wedding, but I get really frustrated when they don't want the cake to be visible for a significant length of time during the wedding. I get really frustrated when they won't allow their photographer and videographer teams to shoot the cake in natural daylight, because I think a lot of times it just doesn't come out as well at night, and lighting is really complicated. Also lighting is really important, positioning, lighting, and all that stuff, so I like to explain, at least my clients understand, like if they choose not to light their cake, for example, or if they choose not to show it until like a ta-da moment, that's their choice, but then they're not going to have, you know, they're only going to have that one split second of memory. They're not going to have a lot of great photos and video footage, because they're not allowing for the cake to be seen or to be photographed, and so I don't, I honestly, I love when my clients take that first bite out of the cake and you see that expression of like, oh my God, this is amazing, and I just think after all that work, it would be a bummer not to see that, because, you know, it is, like I said, a labor of love, so. Yeah, I get it, but on what you were saying about your clients doesn't want to showcase the cake as much as you would like, does that happen a lot? No, I mean, luckily no, but, you know, I would say in, what, 14 years, I can only think of maybe like a handful that didn't, but maybe in the beginning of the process, they weren't thinking about like putting the cake in a significant position during the wedding. It's just after talking and having these conversations and looking, you know, looking together at the layout and how the flow of things are going to go throughout the evening or throughout the afternoon, whatever, and explaining to them the significance of it. Even if, you know, not all of my couples are completely gung-ho about having a giant cake or whatever, and sometimes it's like the parents that really want it, or it's symbolic for the grandparents, or it's whatever, like, it really is such a special symbolic moment in the wedding, and it has a lot to do with like history, but it's also culture, it's also tradition, it's also good luck, it's all those things. And I think especially like younger couples maybe don't necessarily understand all of that until you explain it to them, and then you say, like, even if you're not interested, you know, your friends and your family, your parents, your grandparents, they want to see you do this. They want to see you guys have your first, like, job together as husband and wife or whatever, whoever's getting married, but like, do you know what I mean? I think that it's so important to emphasize all of that, because it's not just, I always say this, like, it's not just a cake, it's not just a piece of cake, it's a moment, and everybody who's at that wedding is looking forward to it. Yeah. It's interesting, you know, when I got married 11 years ago, the cake moment was not one of my most anticipated moments. But turns out it was one of those that I really treasure most. I'm not sure how to put it in words, I don't really know why, but it kind of felt really emotional and important and big. So I think that's, and it's interesting, it's one of those, I can't be wrong, but I think I'm not, it's one of those moments that is cross-cultural. I think as far as the cultures I know, there's always a cake to cut or something. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I have a lot of, you know, a lot of couples with different nationalities, especially here in Portugal, coming for destinations, and I think it's a pretty universal tradition. Maybe the cake looks different depending on where you're coming from, but like the act of doing that together is, I think it's pretty universal. Yeah. So I'm getting to my questions in a couple, and probably we should introduce yourself. Hi. Well, you're Julie de Fons, one of the best wedding cake designers I've ever seen. So it's true. You know, it's interesting, let me explain. I heard a lot of people always talking about this unbelievably beautiful classic and extravagant and whatever cakes, and they didn't have a name to put on that. So once, I don't remember when, but once somebody told me your name, and then the dots merged, and I thought, oh, okay, now it makes sense. So that was really a moment for me, and I think, because I think your name, your brand here, particularly in Portugal, is not as known as others. I think you're like, I've used this example before, but I think you're kind of a Patek Philippe that no one knows about, unless you know. But would you agree with that? I mean, I would love to change that. I would love to be more well-known here, but I'm quite happy to be compared to Patek Philippe. I mean, hey, if you got to be compared to somebody, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I feel like, I mean, not to sound snobby or elitist in any way, but I've been doing it for a long time, and I feel like I've been leading, I hope, leading somehow and inspiring others in the field to grow and to perfect their styles, to lift the segment up and to value more what we as cake designers do, because I think that, like, I remember when I started, and I was teaching a little bit in the beginning, and I was just appalled by some of the things that other bakers, I don't want to say cake designers, other bakers were doing and cutting corners, and I was like, no, that's not the way that we elevate this industry. The way that we elevate it is by setting a good example and by valuing our work and by creating inspiration for others to learn and grow, and in creating and teaching other people, it's how we all also grow. So yeah, I don't know, I wish I was more well-known here, I don't know, I've been trying, it's not for lack of trying, I've been really, you can ask my husband, I work 24 hours a day and... Yeah, but I think that shows in terms of the quality of your work and the clients you have, but I think it's just one of those things that I, probably the weddings that you have, the clients you have are not those that are really on the mainstream right now, and probably, I'll give you an example, I heard a few months back that the biggest weddings that our country is getting are in Douro Valley, the big ones, the million dollars or euros will be there. I didn't know that because I thought Sintra was the main place, so what I think is some of those beautiful and really big weddings in Sintra, Lisbon and also in some places in the north, they are really more mainstream, but probably not as higher budget, and those higher budget are not talked about as much. Maybe. I don't know if this makes sense. Yeah, I think a lot of people don't know that I do make cakes that are less than thousands and thousands of euros, I think people just assume because obviously, I love those big cakes, I love those big, big weddings, big budgets, big, big, big, but I also have, I like to have something for everybody, so I have a small, I don't want to talk about specific numbers on here, but I have something that I think is comparable, a solution that's comparable for pretty much anybody, and I don't promote it a lot because people always say you should focus on your core business, but I don't ever want to have somebody say I couldn't afford it, or I think a lot of times people will send me a picture, let's talk about numbers, just as an example, a lot of people will send me a picture of a 30,000 euro cake, and they say well the budget's only 800 euros, and I'm like okay, so we can dial it back and tell me what you like about that cake, and I can incorporate those details in a cake that fits your budget, and I think a lot of people just assume that I can't afford a cake like that, but they're not taking into account that as a designer and a creative person, there are ways to pick and choose inspiration and then build something creative that fits in the budget, and maybe that kind of hurts me somehow, because people just don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe I need to work on that. I understand, I understand, but I have to ask, is that a 30,000 euro cake, or does that exist? Oh my god, yeah, sure. I mean, I wish there were more of them, but no. And I'm really ignorant in this, so what would it, is it just design, structure, the difficult, the complexity of the production of the cake itself, or would it be also ingredients and more normal stuff? The ingredients and the materials obviously have to factor in, because there are costs, but that's not, I don't think in a cake that scale, that that would be the significant cost factor. It's more, it's really more about... Production and logistics and knowledge. Yeah, like, you know, I could spend, I've had cakes where I spend over 200, 300 hours just on my computer in Photoshop before I even start, and you know, a number of extensive meetings with clients, obviously tastings, things like that, but tasting, I usually do one tasting. But then I've had cakes where it's taken me over two months just to make sugar flowers for that one cake, or 30 days with a pair of tweezers and three bazillion sugar pearls, putting them on one by one, and so like, all those things, if you think about it in relation to like a designer wedding gown, like some of those Middle Eastern designers who the beading is just out of this world, and it's all done by hand, and that has a value. It's also, I mean, some people just look at it as like, that's the price tag, but I look at it as, you're paying for value, you have to appreciate the value, like, my cakes aren't just cakes. You know, if you just want a cake, go to somebody who has less experience, or go to a supermarket, it's okay, like, it's totally fine, I'm not trying to say in a negative way that that's not an option, I'm just saying, you know, my clients, whether they have, I don't know, seven, 800, or 7,000, they have to appreciate the value that goes into the work and the time that's spent from start to finish with the process, and I think, you know, my clients are like fine art appreciators, but the art happens to be edible in this case. You just touched on the, I think, I believe, the main point of it all, the industry, because a cake, it's not a cake when there's your level of art involved, addressed, it's not just a dress, the flower arrangement, it's not just a flower arrangement, photography is not just a photograph, so I think this is the struggle, I think this is the fight that we who try to elevate the industry continuously have, because if you don't see the value on what we do, and what we try to do, at least, there's really no point, because a cake is just a cake, but your cakes are not just cakes, you have the art, the fine art in it, but it's also a business, and you also need marketing in how, it's not a secret of how many amazing geniuses have died for without selling a single painting, how do you navigate that? I think it's really important as an artist to put the art first, and, you know, I studied fine arts, and I was a graphic designer, and I was a technical illustrator, and I was an art director, and all those things, and I've always struggled with the fact that I made a decision in life to do what I love, and forego a little bit of the part of, you know, I'm doing something to make money, because I think there's a huge misconception in the industry that, you know, because especially with all the TV shows about the cake boss, and whatever, all those shows, that, you know, I know how to bake a cake, so I'm going to become rich, and it's, I wish that was the case, but, you know, I think people in the industry at our levels do it because of the passion for the art, and it's not about the money, and, of course, like, I have to make ends meet, and I have companies in two countries, so it's even more complicated, but I also believe that, you know, life is short, and we should do things that make us happy, and I have a lot of friends who, you know, after college or whatever, they got into jobs that were, like, big earning jobs, and they always said how envious they were that I chose to do what I love, and I was like, I was so envious because you guys did something that, you know, made you financially stable, and they said, you know, that's not all there is in life, and the older I get, the more I realize that I get to wake up every day and go to work, and I feel like a kid in a candy shop, like, I get to do what I love, and I think that's priceless, and like I said, you know, you have to, I think once you figure out what your, where your passion actually sits, like, I love the types of cakes that I do. I don't love, like, I love weddings. There's something about it that's so magnetic to me. There's something so special and symbolic, but can I make a cake for a kid's party? Absolutely. Do I wake up at three in the morning thinking about it? No. It's, I'm sure it's the same with photography, you know, like you find your niche, and it's what makes you tick, and I think that a lot of people are in the industry because they think they're going to make money on it, and I just think that that's the wrong reason. because it doesn't necessarily mean your heart's in it and it's usually the other way around when you do exactly what you love how you love yeah usually the money comes after right I'm still waiting but I think the the bigger the cake and the bigger the budget the more you invest back into the business so it's like like any business I guess but the more you invest in your business the more things you can the things you can do and the more things you can offer so it's a big circle yeah but do you do you know though that quotes of Jim Carrey when he talks about his father I'm just real doing it really quickly he's doing a speech in a in a university I think and he's talking about how his father could have been a comedian and he needs opinion a good one but he decided that was maybe too risky so he went in went in becoming an accountant and a few years later he was fired and then Jim says I learned from my father that you can fail at something you don't love so I might as well fail in something that you do love it's true yeah the risky or the safe job I think there's there's none of that right now at the time so just go with it do whatever you need try to do ends meet you need it but once you really you're passionate about what you are doing I think the money comes after I think it's when you try the other way around it doesn't work all that cool and you'll be frustrated and miserable so yeah I've been there I'm thinking about changing the name of the podcast exactly about that that's probably for another conversation because this comes and goes and when you're in business as long as we have in people there are longer it's not always up fortunately it's not always down it kind of kind of comes and goes and you need to well learn to live with that and in sometimes it's it's hard to to know what you love what you want what's what is risky what's not it's not easy and I think there's no formula so we just have to stick with it choose what you love and just go right yeah absolutely I mean there's I can definitely think of decisions that have been hard to make business decisions and you know you just have to take that leap of faith and follow your instinct and if it doesn't work you go in a different you know you just keep going at it but yeah so now I think after 24 minutes I think I can ask you the first question I prepared you talked about slightly about it you live in work between Florida and Portugal right so how does that work I think it's smaller time difference smaller distance everything is smaller on that you know it's like driving to the Algarve from Lisbon it's really not a big deal I it's it's kind of like a long story but you know I've been in Portugal for almost 28 years and like we were talking before we started like I do speak Portuguese but I'm originally from Boston and I guess maybe like eight or nine years ago my parents decided that they were gonna move down to Florida and I had been over here for so many years and I hadn't you know except for like a week or two a year I hadn't really been able to spend time with them as an adult because I've I went to boarding school and then I went to college and then I eventually I moved here when I was 25 so don't do the math but um so I just my husband works with his family and and they got to spend every day with their mom until the days she passed and I just think that's also a luxury in life to be able to spend time with your parents so I found that there was an interesting balance between my life here in Portugal and my home here in Portugal and maybe sharing and building some of my art and you know credentials there in the States to kind of feel like I'm connected in both places so and and coincidentally or not the wedding season here in Portugal is really based in the summer months I would say like I don't know about you but for me it usually starts at the end of May and it goes till maybe the first or second weekend of October and exactly on the other side Florida it starts in October and it goes through May and for me the dates aren't always exact like you know this year I'm only going in the middle of October because I don't have a wedding until the 25th there but I have things going on here until until right before I leave so it goes back and forth based on who books me first but it's been really interesting to kind of see how things have changed like I haven't lived in the States full-time since I was 25 years old and so going back there and now you know when I first moved to Portugal it was like night and day in 98 Portugal was a different country and now I look at it and I'm like I'm so lucky to live in this country I'm so lucky to be here in Portugal and I'm lucky to be able to go back to the States do my work see my parents and then and then come back I like that balance but I feel super grounded here in Portugal and very fortunate to have built my life here I mean this for me is still a home base you know so it's interesting to be able to pop back and forth and that's a very long-winded answer but I think you know I yeah I would I would I don't see you you know any difficulty in driving a cake to Spain or Italy for example so what's the difference I have a I have a studio there I have a studio here in Florida I have an entire second set of everything that I have in Portugal so it's almost easier than driving a cake to a different country here it's like I just go and I have all my stuff there and I I land and I start working and I come back here I land and I start working so it's like it's been an added expense obviously because I have to have double everything and two studios and all that but I like that because there's always things that you're refreshing or yeah inspiration and I can't even imagine how many couples Florida couples I've had just randomly be like I'm getting married in Portugal can you make my cake and I'm like how is that possible like the world is so small you know so I've had weddings here from couples who are like an hour away from my studio in Florida we'll do a cake tasting in Florida but then the cake gets delivered here it's just very very cool yeah we make it work yeah but you know it's it's cool because whenever you talk about distance in being such a small country people think that I live in the north I live in Gimena so you have a we have a country that you can have breakfast in the top north in Valencia we can have lunch in Algarve and then have dinner again so it's such a tiny country but when when you just live here and this is the your normal everything seems far away but coming from the country as big as the US it's just around there it's just two hours I had a friend that moved to Brazil and he said we went surfing and it was a short ride three hours yeah surfing why talking about those differences do you see the difference in the market as well or you think that everything is kind of being globalized I don't know if this is a word but I see a lot of similarities but strangely I think that we here have more I don't know the weddings that I do here are probably on average a little bit more elaborate than the weddings there and I don't know which I wouldn't have expected granted I do a I do a lot of destination weddings in both countries but I do a lot of Portuguese weddings here as well as foreign weddings so I'm not like excluding anybody I just think that we have so many amazing historical architectural artistic venues that just don't exist in the States because it's not as old of a country and so there you have some of those venues but they don't and they're beautiful but they don't have you know like you go into a palace here and you see whatever 500 years worth of art and history and those details are different than if they were made a hundred years ago and does that inspires you I would so your cakes are really absolutely really royal yeah yeah I mean I studied architecture for a little while when I was in college and in Italy and that's part of the reason why I wanted to come to Portugal because I just wanted to get back to Europe but architecture for me is really interesting it's also really important when you're talking about like construction of a cake because you have to think about the architectural element of it and structurally like how how to build it securely and structurally so that it it can stand up and withhold you know an evening or in the case of being in Portugal probably like a good 24 hours on display yeah so you know structure and all that kind of stuff plays a big role but yeah architecture I love like all the Baroque and Rococo details that we have in a lot of our palaces here yeah that's cool super do I kind of we kind of feel that I believe you will feel it too the American couples just found Portugal do you do you feel yeah the same yeah I think the American public in general yeah found Portugal like on a personal level you know being here for almost 28 years and always wanting like all of my friends to come like in the beginning we didn't even you know there weren't any emails there were it was very expensive to call so it's hard to keep in touch and I used to go back every once in a while and be like you have to come and visit this you know it's so magical in Portugal and and like you were saying like for a lot of people it was like that's really far away Portugal where like I had people ask me if I was gonna learn German when I said I was moving to Portugal they had no idea and I was like oh my god I don't think so probably not but um but yeah I think something changed and I I think you know a lot of people are complaining about just the quantity of tourists that have flooded into the country and I get it like maybe the infrastructure wasn't quite ready for that boom but the country needed it like we needed it and I sort of I think that they're just trying to catch up to how to accommodate so many people coming in but like I have to say like thank goodness that Portugal is finally on the map and after all these years like we had last summer we had almost six months of non-stop house guests and imagine like a house full of people the entire summer with the wedding season and the whole nine yards but it was it was fun you know it was nice to be able to show people all of the things that I've been talking about for all these years and like our favorite restaurants and our favorite places to go for a walk or the most amazing secret museum that nobody knows about or the insiders view to a secret jewelry place or whatever it is like it's so it's really nice for me to feel that everybody's seeing what I've been seeing for the last 25 27 28 years you know it's last year 2024 I heard a statistic in history logically the the nationality that most often come came to Portugal was Spanish obviously and 2024 the top nationality in terms of tourism into Portugal was the US was Americans which it kind of blew my mind because it's not a close country in like Spain or even France and it was as you said it we needed it it was amazing it's still being and I think it's still beginning but I agree that we weren't ready we needed it we weren't ready and now we are just running and some people some brands adapt more easily than others but I think it's it's interesting just say that the moment I think the only thing that I think is kind of frustrating about it maybe this isn't the only thing but the only thing that's coming to my mind right now is I think a lot of people have taken advantage of that and made it very complicated for the locals to live like a normal experience because price-wise like you know restaurants have gone up through the roof and hotels have been extreme you know crazy everything sort of in the service industry real estate like it's just I think it's really unfair for the local people to you know like it's it's impossible for anybody to buy a place anymore like a young person starting out and I don't think it's fair that it I don't think it's fair that it kind of exploded like it did and pushed all the local people out because I think what's happening in the cities and I don't think it's just Portugal and you know it's but because now we have all all these things to compare it to people are taking advantage and pushing the prices up because they see oh and you know in whatever in New York City or in whatever the prices are this so why can't we you know and I think that that's unfortunately that's life but that's what's happening and it's it's too bad because you know people used to say like I want to go to Portugal to get married because it's cheaper what first of all I don't know if that's true maybe it was like 10 years ago but it's cheaper I'm not sure if it's cheap but right always cheaper than the u.s. yes but well I don't know not always like I if you have I don't if you have the same type of wedding would in any case be the same price well I think that certain things are different prices like like I charge the same if I had a request here for a five-tier cake with you know with 300 guests my price would be the same here or in the States just it would be either in dollars or euros and you know yeah but you because my time is the same but you would have earned a lot less there because of taxes and the price of ingredients probably right funny enough the tax rate here is a lot higher well it can be yeah yeah yeah but but I think certain things you know I think the little that I know I think venue prices are much more expensive there I think probably things like flowers like florals and stuff must be much more expensive there just because where they're being imported from maybe it's I don't know but I think that that gap of like oh going to Portugal for a cheaper wedding I don't I don't see that as much anymore I think you come to Portugal because you want like an experience you want I think Portugal is somewhere where the entire world hasn't been married at unlike you know some of the destinations that you see all the time yeah but yeah again it all comes down to value and I don't know which yeah yeah that's true but as you were talking a bit earlier some people took a bad event advantage of that in some cases good and sometimes not as not a good thing but even in specifically in the wedding industry sometimes I feel and I just this phrase it's the beginning of the red hot chili pepper so sometimes sometimes I feel like we are in the wedding industry but I think probably across the entire spectrum of the economy but sometimes it seems like we are becoming more or less like and I'm exaggerating obviously but like the Maldives you know it Maldives is those places where everyone in the world aspires to go it's an expensive vacation but the people that live there live absolutely no near those things and obviously this is a really extreme example but talking about photography in particular I know a bit better we always have worked with medium to top market in Portugal but we are now moving past that and all those professions that make a great living on the salary they care they can no longer book us it's really hard it feels like a gap we are living a kind of a world behind and getting into another another world and it feels sometimes unfair but do you think this will change for the better anytime soon? I don't know. I mean, I hope that, you know, things just continue to evolve in a positive way. And I don't know, I think there's so many complications in the world right now that it's really hard to say what's happening. But yeah, I don't know. I think I'm a people pleaser. So like, I always want everybody to be happy. And I always want to kind of bend over backwards to do, you know, to go the extra mile to do whatever extra it takes to make people go, wow, that was just absolutely incredible. But at the same time, I think that we all have to recognize that like, we can't all do everything for everybody all of the time. And I would prefer to look at it like that than to say like, I'm leaving people behind or whatever, because I don't know, like in any business or in any service industry, like, you know, there are going to be clients that have, it's a good fit and clients that aren't. And if it's not a good fit for me or for you, then there's somebody else in the industry who it is going to be a good fit for. So maybe another way to look at it is like, if it's not a good fit for me, I'm opening the door for somebody else to take on that client and do a really good job. You know, like, you have to look at it positively, because... Yeah, yeah. I think I needed to hear that. So thank you. Yeah, if you think about it, like, the only way we can grow is to have others grow alongside. And like, I don't know, I mean, I would much rather tell a client, like, I don't think it's a good fit. I mean, even if the money was there, right? Like, even if the budget wasn't the issue, but like, maybe the vision isn't in alignment with my artistic vision, or maybe it could just come down to, like, something like the way that the interaction is going, it's just not smooth or whatever. But I would much rather, and I do, like, I have a handful of people that I will recommend when I don't feel like it's right, when I don't feel like I'm the right solution for that specific client, because I think there's a lot of value in telling somebody, like, I'm not the right person for you, but I would recommend so and so. Or I would much rather see you go with this person, for example, because they know how to sculpt a bird on top of a cake, and it's not my strength, than me try to do it for you. And I've had people like, please, I just want you. And I'm like, okay, but I understand that. But I'm telling you, I'm not the right person. I'm giving you the person who's the professional in the industry for that specific technique. And I hope that, you know, by doing that, I'm completely transparent about my strengths and weaknesses and my comfort zone. And because I think if you're not 100% the leader in the field for what your client is asking you to do, then you can't give them everything, because you don't necessarily have all that knowledge set. So I think it's important to have, like, people that you can, you know, colleagues in your industry that you can recommend and say, like, look, not my will set, but this is the right, if I were the client, I would go to this person. You know, people appreciate that. And it's kind of where the world is going is we are completely niched, everyone. So if you're working to everyone, you're probably working for no one. Yeah. So Julie, we are approaching the end really fast. And I just have two more questions. How do you define success in your life? It's, you know, that's funny, because, like, I, I think I struggle with that a lot. Like, it's been so especially with, like, an American mentality, it's been so ingrained in my head, that success has a lot to do with financial stability. And like I said before, if that was the most important thing to me, I wouldn't be doing this, I would be doing something else, because this is, you know, a labor of love. I think success is mastering your craft and feeling confident to be able to deliver what you think is the best for your clients. And then some like, I, I think, obviously, success is like doing the job well done. But it's also going above and beyond and surprising your clients with, like, the little details that no one's expecting. Whether in my case, you know, whether it's bringing extra cake for the vendor team and surprising them and saying, thank you for, you know, trusting me, or thank you for including me or bringing cake the night before finding, finding out where the bride's staying and bringing a surprise box of cupcakes for them to have, you know, or, or giving a little gift to a client afterwards, and something that's like handmade, and really personal and thought out and just saying how much I've appreciated working with them. And, you know, being, I think, just being grateful for the trust that people put into us for their day. Also success in my, in my case, I love that I've become friends with so many of my clients. That's unexpected. It's not something that I imagined in the very beginning that I would become friends with so many of my clients, but it's such a personal process that they go through. It's so, I think it's so stressful. It's so, there's so much that goes into planning some of these weddings. And I, I don't want to say I become like their therapist, but a couple times I feel like I have been a therapist, but I think I become almost like a, like an older sister. Not older, just sister. Well, most of the times it's older, but sometimes it's younger. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Like a family member. And that brings me a lot of happiness. I was chatting back and forth with a bride today on WhatsApp. And I don't know if, I don't know if you know this, but I'm writing another book. I haven't really told anybody yet, but I, I, um, I've decided to have a few rights. You have a few books. Yeah. But this one is like really near and dear to me. And I'm, um, involving a lot of my clients and she, you know, she was telling me how much she wanted to be part of it. Cause I asked her obviously to be part of it. And she's like, I just, she has a baby and she's, you know, lighting the candle at both ends kind of thing. Like she was so exhausted. I heard it in her voice and I was like, you know, it, the conversation for me changed from me wanting her to participate in the book to being like, are you okay? Do you need something? Like, what can I do to help you? And I think that maybe differentiates people like me or people like us from other people in the industry who it's just, it's just business. It's not like it's, um, it's something that has to come from the heart. And I think that success, especially in this industry, like has nothing to do with money. It has to do with feeling the preciousness of that moment and wanting to help your client achieve that. Um, whatever it is, 24 hours or weekend or week or whatever of that perfect bubble with their closest friends and family. I think if we can all do that, then there's no better success, right? Like so special. Yeah. I would only add that the, the, the money side, I think only matters to make you feel taken care of as long as you feel, you feel that, uh, because when I think the, the happy comes from everything you said, you're happy comes from that. And the money said, okay, I mean, I'm taken care. So, yeah. Awesome. I think, I think the money, obviously, I mean, I'm kind of being, I'm kind of joking a little when I say the money doesn't matter at all. Of course it matters. Like it all matters, right? Yeah. We all have bills to pay and we all need to be recognized for our, for the work we do. Um, and I think that the money side of it is again, like in both of our industries, yours and mine, people could be like, oh, I could be a photographer. I take a picture on my iPhone or I could make a cake. Cause I made a birthday cake for my three-year-old, but like, can they really like, if you, you know, if you were to photograph the same apple, whatever it's it's apples to oranges. And if I made a cake, it's apples to oranges. So I think that, you know, the money side of it, people in our industries need to evaluate their level of, um, of talent and charge accordingly and, and make the effort to continue to learn and improve their skillset so that they can grow and not just, oh, I heard that person's charging X. So I'm going to charge X minus 10% and I'm going to get the business, you know? Yeah. So money is important. Yeah. But I think that's when you divide the fine arts, broadly speaking, uh, the fine art, um, approach and the exclusively business approach. Yeah. So last question, Julie, what's next? What's next for Julie DeFrance? Um, beside the book, the book is a big thing. I think that's a big next step. Uh, I just don't know when, I just don't know if I can manage to pull it out, uh, get it done before the end of the year, or maybe only in the spring. We'll see kind of, there's so many factors going into it, but, um, next, next is, um, I had to Florida and I jumped straight into the wedding season there. You don't have enough season. I don't. You're always on season. No, I get like a week to clear it all up here and then go there. Um, but I love it. I would rather be busy than not busy. So, um, yeah, next that's the next step. And then I'll, you know, I'll be back for Christmas and I just go, I kind of go back and forth a lot. We, people start to recognize us on tap because they're like, Oh my God, you're on the flight again. I'm like, yeah. Well, but Julie, this was a pleasure. Um, I'm, um, I'm a fan. I love your work. I haven't had the chance to, to, to taste one. I'm looking forward to that, but I really love them. It's they're really beautiful. Um, thank you for taking the time to having this conversation. We, we kind of waited, uh, a few months, but it was worth it. Yeah. So just to finish, how can people find you? Where can people find you on? Uh, on my website, julidefans.com. I'm on Instagram, julidefans, um, through you. Yeah. And you also on YouTube with Beyond the Cake. I, I'm on Beyond the Cake. Uh, that's my podcast. Yep. I, yeah, I'm on all social media. I'm on, I'm pretty much everywhere. Yeah. Well, I will make sure to put everything on the, um, on description and show notes. Julie, thank you so much. This was a pleasure. Thanks so much. Bye-bye Julie. Bye.