Uma mão cheia de vida

episode: 8 title: "Ep. 8 - Uma mão cheia de vida, com Ana Nunes" pub_date: "Mon, 20 May 2024 05:00:00 +0000" original_language: english source_audio: "4c8a6736.mp3"

Hello, welcome. I'm Rui and this is the The Wack Podcast. This week I have the pleasure of sharing with you the conversation I had with Ana Nunes, cake designer, among many other things, and founder of Cake Shop. Ana is one of those people who makes everything seem simple and light, while investing everything in what she is dedicated to. She is an eternal student, even though she spent half her life teaching what she learned. She is a person of people and, therefore, I think that nothing makes more sense than creating cakes so that we can celebrate life together. Without further ado, follow me in the conversation with Ana. Hello Ana. Hello Rui. Welcome to my podcast. You said it right. I have to learn the podcast, right? Also, if you send me the correct diction, it wouldn't be... I didn't see the other one. It wouldn't be weird to say it wrong, right? Rui, thank you so much for coming here. I'm very happy to have you here. You have to thank me. Of course, of course. What do I have to thank you for? You are a love. Look, thank you so much. I think I really appreciate those who make community, those who work in the sense of bringing people together. And as I said, I see this as the beginning of a lot of beautiful things that you are going to do. So, thank you for having me here. And we are going to share things. I'm going to learn a lot from you, for sure. Questionable, questionable. But thank you, thank you so much. And really, I think we are all in need of that. I know I am, in a very inner way. And I think many of us are, so I think it will be great. And thank you for being here today. Thank you. I wanted to start by saying this. You are one of those people who simply do us good. What do you mean? You have a light, you have a palpable energy that makes it very difficult not to be right next to you. And in my perspective, it is not by chance, nor is it surprising, that your profession and your passion, at least at this stage, at this moment in your life, is cake design. In other words, the main symbol of the celebrations. Everything that is a celebration, at the beginning, has a cake. And for me, that is not by chance. I don't think it's really by chance. But, not everything was roses, right? No, not everything was roses. I don't really know what to say after what you just said. And you were very kind in your introduction. I don't have a very linear life. It hasn't been a rollercoaster. But I have learned a lot from it. And so, I'm not a kid anymore. I can look back. I can see, in fact, resilience. I can see that I want to be happy at all times. We don't have time to spend living in places that don't tell you much. So, at this moment, I'm doing cake design, as you said. I don't really know what I'm going to do tomorrow. I've done a lot. And I'm happy. I'm happy at this moment doing what I do. And so, I've also been persistent. It's not an easy world. I don't know if you're going to ask or not. Certainly, yes. How do we deal with these difficulties? Of our profession, of your profession, etc. But it's been a very beautiful adventure. An adventure that started on my return here, to Portugal, after 14 years abroad. And after many rollercoasters, experiencing a little bit of everything. For those who don't know you, they may not have the notion of the career path you've had. Professional. And if I'm not mistaken, you have a degree in Physical Education. Right. You have a Master's in Nutrition. Three. And then you still have three. In Nutrition? Yes, all of them. Nutrition, Metabolism, Dietetics, Nutrition and Nutrition. Yes, I did three. Just three. There was no more? It was necessary to then take the next step. But then, start at that stage and explain to us more or less what happened to you and what you did and how you ended up where you are now. I got my degree in Physical Education here at the University of Porto. Then I went to Barcelona in 2002. At the time, I had a boyfriend who was Spanish. I went to the circus. We used to play around. I had some jobs in Spain, in the circus area. And I decided to bet everything. I had a very stable life here. I was a little bit afraid of that stability. And there we went. The relationship didn't last. For the best. Because now I look back and in retrospect everything makes sense. And then, I always had that part of nutrition. I always liked to eat and understand a little bit what I was eating. And that passion took me to do a Master's. The first Master's took me to the second, which then took me to the third. And in the meantime, I get sick. And I always wanted to do research. All this I was doing at work. I worked in international schools, teaching physical education to children. But I was doing these Master's. Then, I got sick with breast cancer in 2008. And I had a lot of questions. Of course, it's a shock. It's something I wasn't expecting. I was a vegetarian when I was 10 years old. I did yoga at 7 in the morning. I rode my bike. I could go to school and come back. No one was there. Obviously. You were 30, right? I was eating the world in pieces. And suddenly the world said, calm down. And it was a shock. I imagine it will always be a big shock. And I started buying books. At that time I was doing treatment. It was a year of treatment. I did everything. I did surgery, radiotherapy, chemotherapy. I did a lot of art therapy. And I read a lot about nutrition. I read about some studies. I was interested. I was already a person with nutritional concerns. I realized there was a world to give answers. At least I needed a lot of answers. And when I felt better, when I finished the treatments, a year later, I went to meet a group of researchers in nutrition. They were at the Instituto Catalão de Oncologia. The Institute of Oncology of Catalonia. And I got a scholarship. I went to the Faculty of Medicine. I enrolled in this doctorate in Transnational Research. I studied a lot to get all this. Obviously. A physical education. It was not easy. But it was a lot of study. I like to study a lot. And that's how it was. I studied a little bit. I came here in 2016. I decided I wanted to come with my parents. I am the only child. I had cancer. My mother had cancer. My father had cancer. It's hard to be away. And then I came here in 2016. With my husband. You know him. My children. And on the day I defend the PhD thesis which was February 19, 2018 I start the full-time cake shop. The full-time cake shop starts the day after I close that chapter. I'm opening chapters. I'm closing chapters. And the cake shop was something that was already there living with me for a year and a half. Exactly. Because you have the cake shop since August 2016. I arrive in August. And I'm asking my husband it's going to be like this. I'm going to have a year now. And I thought I was going to close the chapter in 6 months, 12 months. It will take a little longer. And while I do that for the sake of my mental health I will continue to make cakes but I will professionalize this a little bit. And I asked him the name because at some point I sometimes block them. My husband is letters. And I said, Ana, cake shop. Because I didn't know if we were going to stay here if we were going to return to some point. I don't know, he is English. I never wanted to live in England but it could be something in the future. And the cake shop left there very open and very clear what I wanted to do at that moment and still want to do. And the cake shop starts in September 2016 in part-time the hours I could and it starts a little bit launched I wasn't expecting all that acceleration. And maybe that's why I couldn't finish the chapter in 6 months, it took a little longer. But you know it's funny because I had to investigate your Instagram in the first place. I went to the first posts. I don't delete them because I'm very proud of them Rui, but as you imagine ... No, but that's what I was going to say. You ... Naturally there is an evolution even because you are at a point of quality absolutely unbelievable but you look at the first and you already have a level that both in the phase and being your first were really far above the average. That is, you don't have an astronomical difference you don't have anything to be ashamed of. Which is rare because what I did at the beginning is at the ends of this world and it doesn't come out at all. So I think it's excellent and an incredible reason for pride for you. It's in your eyes, Rui. It's in your eyes, Rui. Yes, it's in your eyes. You see the confines of your world and you see my work. Yes, I started in 2016, I started accepting a marriage challenge right there at the beginning and maybe that's why I don't have ... Of course I'm afraid. My biggest fear is to die before my time. But otherwise I'm not that afraid. So when they told me marriage challenge and I was a very dear fiancée I'll always remember her and I did it. And then I think it aroused some interest because I have a first contact of a magazine of those more ... I think at the time it reached a lot of people I think it doesn't exist anymore. And that for me was like flashing because it was right after and an invitation to give training when I had just started but I specialize in buttercream flowers and so I already had three invitations to give training and of course I said pause let's finish first what we have to finish and so until 2018 I didn't start giving training but it was all very fast it could have been a little faster at the beginning but I think it was at the right time. I think it was at the right time. And although, as you say I look at those first jobs Yes, things happen at the right time. It's a bit of a shame because I don't identify with a lot of things but I don't know it will always be like that if I said the cake I posted yesterday get out of me with a lot of love and I will always have affection for that project. Let's say so. Yes, but tell me one thing you touched on the cakes it was always something that the kitchen in general in particular it was always something you liked it was always with you? No, it's more for the meaning of course there is a laboratory part very interesting I work in a laboratory I really like the chemistry of things and this is still exactly that the chemistry and so there is a part of me very technical very precise that I like. I like to test recipes I like to be around professional things smoothening I mean, we have a buttercream Swiss meringue that is super airy that has a lot of bubbles and I will be satisfied when I don't see any bubbles even a little bit of those challenges but at the level of the kitchen who cooks here at home is my husband so it's not just me who cooks I like to do something very often and at the level of the cakes it was for the meaning because I grew up seeing my grandmother go through a lot of difficulties and the way she thanked people for all the favors and affection they gave her it was through an orange cake and so that orange cake always echoed here in me and I feel that a lot I've made a lot of cakes and whenever I deliver a cake I feel that I deliver a part of me I don't know if it's very romantic but it's really how I live and during the process and that communication with others I think it comes from there it comes from living that feeling that my grandmother did of thanking people I always thank them, of course I'm remunerated I live from this but I'm not going to tell you that I spent all my life cooking in the kitchen when I was little, no but I had that memory, that affective memory and then this starts when I make a dessert for my daughter Lili that you know she's 4 years old in Frozen and I make a dessert from Frozen and my Catalan friends they loved it and I think that they were the big motivators and maybe they planted the seed that a few years later came to this project What a joke! So, in professional terms you studied a lot but did you practice the things that you studied? It depends on the things of course that during Physical Education I started to work at 18 to teach Physical Education at 18 in a project that Câmara da Maia had for Physical Education teachers so I left college with 5 years of experience and in Barcelona I chose my job because I really had that experience then, in terms of Nutrition it was always by my own knowledge of course that I had to do some seminars and some lectures, some very interesting things in terms of Nutrition but it was more like that in terms of Doctoring I was able to teach a few classes at the Faculty of Medicine of the University of Barcelona it was in some moments they showed me that even though I teach and I have taught all my life sometimes 18, but it is not my beach I think it is... I don't know, it has another kind of scope, I prefer the closest things so I went to the Faculty of Medicine which was an amphitheater with 100 oncologists who were going to do a Master's Degree in Mammary Pathology and I was talking about this part of Nutrition, of epidemiological studies of relations, of survival, of breast cancer super interesting but I didn't imagine myself doing that for a long time so, answering your question yes, I was exercising even though when I started mainly in the Master's Degrees and in the Doctoring part I was never thinking about a work goal I confess, it was as a personal knowledge I can't go there half-assed if I have any, you already know that because I just told you about the professional photography course because I want to take cool pictures so, how am I going to do that? I'm going to the APCI, I've already signed up 3 times yesterday I talked to them again to see if it was the 4th time they were meeting a group and they said yes, everything indicates that the professional edition is going to start so, let's do it and that's how I've faced it I'm not going to be a photographer I think I am, I don't know but it doesn't go through my future goal to be a professional photographer but I want to it's a passion I've had since I was little and I want to learn well and I think it's going to go well I hope so I really want to learn about your world Yes, it's something I really admire about you not only the ability to create cycles but to close them and what you invest in education in learning clearly you don't take it half-assed you take it 50-50 it's annoying you do everything look who's talking and you do everything well I don't do everything well you're a dear I do everything well and you go back to things you go serious you do well and if I tell you that in the last 2 years I've talked to the faculty of medicine I've talked to the faculty of psychology I don't know, other things other concerns let's see where it goes considering that the majority the main part of your professional time was dedicated to cake design I'd like to ask you what did you manage to bring from all your other training, personal experiences and professional experiences what did you bring from everything you did before to cake design? well at the level of the doughs the fillings that I work with the ingredients, without a doubt studying food chemistry for 6 years because there are things that are repeated in some masters, others that are independent it helps, it helps a lot I also teach in that sense explaining food chemistry the ingredients to my students in a very soft way very light so that they understand that if a client asks for a less sweet cake that the sugar is not there just to give sweetness it has other functions so I try to explain that without a doubt my academic background helps the others I always end up in my training I lack the training because of course I make cakes but at this moment the cake shop and this year's ranking has been the cake design training so I always end up bringing something from my experience I investigated cancer in associations with physical activity with environmental factors with nutrition so I always end up talking about so I talk about why and I look for some epidemiological studies simple, not easy simple so there's always that knowledge from the physical education part maybe there's that balance thing that tells them we can't eat this every day so the ideal is that we move the skeleton so I don't know if physical education is so plasmatic but maybe in well-being which was the area I specialized in yes, it will be because it ends up being a pleasure And we can allow ourselves to have our own pleasures, and we should eat a good slice of cake, and it doesn't have to be the so-called fit cake, whatever that means, and so, maybe that's more in that sense that I'm bringing to my current area. That term is really interesting, the logic of the fit cake, of the two, one, it either doesn't exist, or if it exists, it's weak. So, I think the most interesting thing is, if it's to eat, eat something without... Exactly. It receives that dose of dopamine in your brain that will really make you happy, but then, now, you don't do that every day, or constantly, right? But that's me. And now, the weddings, that is, you had that experience, you make the cakes, you started doing it as a joke, but what brought you to weddings, and what made you stay? Look, excellent question. I think at the cake shop, the fact that they asked me for things, I have given an answer to those things, that is, it was that first contact, right there at the beginning, of a fiancée, to whom I really wanted to give an answer. It was a huge challenge, starting and taking on a project of that magnitude, of that importance, for me, at least, that's how I took on that project, it was really very important. And then, because, right in that first experience, it went really well. So, to have such dear fiancées, we do a taste test, and it's a moment... I really like being with people, I really like people. So, having that first contact so spectacular, it was right there, behind the ear, that one day, if I could, it would be in that kind of context that I would work. And yes, I think that right from the start, I tried to see what I could do to learn, obviously. I made many birthday cakes, I made many cakes for the macaque, for the children, etc. And I saw how to get in, there were some for the grooms, and I tried to understand where my grooms were, I realized that it wasn't for the grooms, with all due respect, and I had very dear grooms there, but we have something here in the wedding cakes, Rui, I don't know if we've talked about this before, which is, on Thursdays, they offer the cake, they don't offer anything, it's part of the catering, it's another service, and so, many times, not even for the grooms, on these holidays, the grooms don't even want to talk to you, because for them, what they offer is already good. And so, we have, and it's been my job until now, and it will continue to be, which is to try to understand, in this small percentage of grooms, for those who don't have enough for the Thursday cake, who want to taste the cake, want to do the tests, want to be satisfied with what they eat, and visually want to be identified in that wedding cake, they look for these people, like me, who dedicate ourselves only to that. But this also gives you more kick, doesn't it? The fact that you work at ESPN is so specific. You know that, from now on, they won't ask you for a basic thing. Yes, a year ago, Rui, I was telling you something. Today, you catch me at a time when I'm here putting, I don't know, a lot of question marks, a lot of things. That's why I told you I didn't want to postpone this for the next century. Because you catch me at a time when I'm questioning a lot of things. Of the sector, mine, my job, where I want to go. Because I've spent the last four years, more or less, already very aware that I just wanted to do a wedding cake, so I haven't shown the birthday cake. And the truth is that after a year like a year that passed, which I think it was... I think it was, no, I did my math, I'm a person of numbers, so an Excel doesn't lie, and told me that my ability to protect myself from last year was very close to the maximum, working in the jewellery I work in. I have an atelier at home, so I'm lucky to be able to have one floor of the house dedicated to my atelier. And I'm lucky because it's what I want with my children, who are still very young, so I give them more assistance. And so, to be here alone, me working, giving training and making wedding cakes, my maximum ability has surely been reached last year. What I did, and it was a housework that I wanted to do in the last two or three years, I've reserved moments this year to play. I've reserved moments this year to be in my laboratory, and in my creative studio, a little bit of both, to overcome myself technically and creatively. So, it's one of the things I've been doing, and that has really made me happy this year. It's not that I wasn't happy in the other years, but I was really going for the taste of everything, it was a lot of work, I didn't have time to pass. I'm not going to tell you that this year I'm being calmer, in March I studied 17 workshops. In March I studied, and I have to tell myself more than once, to understand what I'm capable of. I taught 17 workshops. And this is crazy. It's really cool for me, as an entrepreneur who lives from this, but at the same time I know I can't keep up with this pace. They were workshops that had already been hired last year, and now I have my work, I have my training, and I have my creative time, where I want to give my hand, I want to embrace creatives from other areas, and from other nuances, from weddings and outside of them, so that we can pick on each other and do beautiful things. This year, my priority is to play, and I have already played, and I don't know if I answered your question. Yes, no doubt. But I wanted to ask you a related question, which is about your creative part, your creative process. How do you play? How do you explore what there is to do? How do you look for points of inspiration that are different from yours? What is your process? Look, my way of decorating cakes, until recently, was buttercream. And I got into buttercream, and I smoothed the buttercream, and I think I've already done... It's not that everything is invented, I didn't invent anything, but at the technical and creative level, with buttercream I've already done a lot. So, what has happened to me in recent years? I was very... I didn't like eating sugar paste, so I always said, I don't like eating it, I'm going to sell it to my clients. But the truth is that for many years now, we've been doing very weird things in the world of cake design, with sugar paste, with ganache, etc. So, right now, I'm very inspired by my passion for ceramics, which was something I embraced when we were disconfined. We were disconfined, and I went straight to do a course at Roda do Aleiro, and I started doing some cake stands and some games, which I soon professionalized, I opened an online shop, which is the Tome by Cake Shop, where I sell cake stands. And I got into that... Is it just me? No, I'm kidding. And I got into that area of Roda do Aleiro, and now I'm trying to translate everything that comes from pottery, from ceramics, into my cakes. So, these are things that buttercream didn't give me, and it will always be my first passion, but I think I'm slowly falling in love with this art form. And so, right now, my inspiration, my Pinterest, the accounts I follow on Instagram, increasingly stop being cake designers, or stop being cakes, and they become ceramists, people who play in the pottery, and also... I did a confectionery cutting course, and it wasn't to be modest, it was to make some jackets for me, some skirts, etc. I did that in Barcelona. And so, draping, which is something I love, and I have some mannequins here in the studio, of course, and so I take these mannequins and put the fabrics together, and I also play around, trying to translate that from the fabrics to the sugar paste. I've already done some projects that satisfied me a lot, and so I think that right now, between the fabric and the clay, I'm exploring. I'm exploring these two things, without knowing anything about what I'm going to... what's going to be the line, or what's going to stop being the line. It's going to be a little different, I'd like to keep some things from the beginning, from the romantic cake, bring something contemporary. Then I have a very rustic, very raw essence of mine, I don't know how I'm going to be able to translate that or not, in the design, but as I tell you, right now, there are little pieces that are everywhere, and nowhere else, Rui. How important do you think this mixture of your arts is, not only for your day-to-day, for your life, for your creative satisfaction, but also for your actual work? Let's talk about my dispersion. Since I was little, there's something that has been, well, it's true, since I was little, it has been... manual arts, manual works, everything that is done by hand is a passion of mine, and I've already sewed, I crochet, I knit, I've made church windows, I make jewelry, I made my wedding rings, I loved to work with gold, I also like to make jewelry, I also like to work with silver, obviously, when I became a professional, I also sold some silver pieces, I couldn't sell gold because it was a very expensive raw material, but I also played with silver, and all of that, sometimes I'm doing it, I don't know if I'm conscious, you see, it's a good question, because sometimes, only in the middle of the process, I'm saying, look, remember when you did that in the jewelry shop, when you applied that technique, that pliers, and that's it, that has helped me, but not in a conscious way, that goes, what I sometimes notice, is that I act on things, that is, I connect, I make quick arrows, that is, I have an ease there, let's say, there are things that play a lot against me, in this dispersion, and there are other things that this dispersion helps me with, and one of them is making arrows, making connections, I do it in a way more unconscious than conscious. I am, look, since I'm a little old, I can say this, I'm not a little kid anymore, but I'm a work machine, that is, since I was little, since I was little, I have the whole timeline controlled from start to finish, so I know what I'm going to do, I won't tell you today or tomorrow, today I knew what I was going to do, I was going to be here in conversation with you, but if I have to serve wedding cakes to 300 people on a weekend, and I know from Monday to Friday, from 8 to 9 what I'm going to be doing, from 9 to 10, from 10 to 11, I have a schedule, so I'm very square in that sense, and that's how I can make a profit and not disperse, because I'm dispersed by nature, I'm very dispersed, and as my psychologist says, I'm a professional enthusiast, in that enneagram it clearly said that I'm a professional enthusiast, so I'm enthusiastic, I want to do everything, and I'll make cakes for 300 and 500 and whatever you want, but then I'll be very professional, even in time management, so I'll know that if there's already a 10 or 15 minute dispersion, that I'll have to walk on eggshells. And that's how I can organize myself, and be able to give 17 workshops a month, or be able to make cakes alone for so many people, clean the kitchen, go shopping, manage clients, be on Facebook, manage social networks, etc. You can be polyvalent when you organize frankly well. I mean, there must be polyvalent people who don't organize, but in my case, I think organization helps me a lot. I feel that you can only do so many things, but even just one, well, if you're organized, and we don't have time organization, I think it's the worst that can happen to us, even more when you add steps, or you add complexity to your life. But do you have this programmed with consistency? Do you have project by project? If you have this project, do you do the alignment? Or do you have, for example, a weekly or monthly project for things that you know you have to do regularly? Like website, back-office, clients, Instagram... No, I don't. There's a funny part of me, I like to work under pressure. So, for example, if I'm going to serve 300 guests next weekend, of course I know in advance what I have to do. Now, two months ago, I didn't manage this calendar. Ok, this calendar will be managed very easily, I've been doing this for so many years, managing my time, that I can do this quickly, with efficiency. I don't need to know a year in advance what's going to happen that week, or a few months in advance. No, I manage that easily, I do it this week. Look, the networks... It depends. This is crazy sometimes, most of the time it's a bit crazy, I'm not the only one. So, I can't do it in advance, saying, I'm going to do social networks, I try, by the way, I have a checklist here, my life is full of checklists, of the three things I have. So, I try not to lose track and do the check. Ok? Right now, I'm fully aware that Instagram, which is my mantra, has a bit of a negative effect on me, but I'm trying everything I can to give it all the gas and energy, and the enthusiasm I've had for so long, to organize myself better in relation to the posts. So, at the level of my social networks, I have two strong ones, which are... I'm talking about the demand they ask me for, which is the cake shop part, with the wedding cakes, and the workshop part, with my students, or future students, who want to do my courses. And that's daily. I'd like to say, and sometimes I try not to answer in some periods, but that sometimes accumulates in such a way that I can't have that management so... As you say, so... As I have in the other one, which is part of the work phase, putting my hand in the dough, I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. I don't know what's going to happen that day, that cake, that formation. I'm going to do the wedding cake formation next Sunday. I know what I have to do every day this week. The social networks are there, they have to be there, but I can't delegate the way I created the cake shop platform at the beginning. I can't, I'm not saying I won't do it tomorrow, but at the moment it doesn't make sense for me to have that management. And so I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it as much as I can. I'm very disenchanted, Rui, because everything that is routine, everything that is mandatory, everything that is a bit imposed, at the time... How do you deal with that part? You said you lost a bit of enthusiasm. In what sense? I think it really has to do with my... this part of wanting to do different things instead of doing the same thing many times in a row. I don't know if it's... I think it's multifactorial. I think I can't just put one reason why I lost enthusiasm. So I created the cake shop network. I don't have a personal network. I created the cake shop network in 2016, at the end of 2016. And I attacked it with everything. I went to listen to everything that was podcasts, I bought a book about Instagram, everything that was Instagram, algorithms, and I realized how I could reach my audience. I did that work. And I realized how I could really grow, and the platform kept growing. But that's it. That requires you to do a very routine thing, which is, the more you post, the more you interact, the more... I know it's 9pm, so Sunday is good, and I have a family, I have other things to do at 9pm, and maybe the enthusiasm came almost out of obligation. Now, if I don't like it, I like to be there. When I'm there, I like to be there. I like to see colleagues' work, I like to see... I like to answer people who interact with my posts. That human part, as you said, I like people, and I like to be there. There's a part that I enjoy as well. But that's when I want it. Last year, I did 40 posts, or 50 posts, I don't know, all year long. That's a reflex. And then, in December, I did a bit of a study of how the year was going, and I realized, my God, it's not enough to grow. And I didn't grow. Last year, on my social media, I didn't grow. If you look at the graph, you can see that the growth wasn't... It wasn't... I didn't agree with what it could be, but it was with what I gave it. I gave that to Instagram, and Instagram said, OK, you're going to lose some and you're going to win others. You're going to stay in the same. And I stayed there, a little bit in the same. But don't you get bored of how few things last, at the moment? Look, maybe... I'll leave you with something else, for which I lost my enthusiasm. One of the things that gives me immense pleasure is the editorial work, and... making a video for fun. Like, taking the camera, which is something I really enjoy, to be in front of the camera, but I do that exercise for myself, and I start making a cake. And I like to do that slowly. So, whether it's thinking about the editorial, or a creative joke, or thinking about a movie I want to make, I don't want to think about a five-second movie. I don't want to think about that three-second click, that little bite for the eye. I want to do it for myself. That's what I'm telling you. And maybe having... Not so much understanding the return, but understanding, of course I could be satisfied and do it just for myself. Of course, there are things I do that are just for myself. But damn, it's my job, full-time. I want to sell. I want to sell cakes. I want to get married. I want to get to my fiancés. And I want to get to my fiancés in an honest way. I don't want to buy followers, just to be here in the middle of my street with 100,000 followers. I want it to be very organic. And I think the Instagram world is not like that. I respect all my colleagues who buy followers, who make their project in that sense, in the quick sense of this projection. Even so, it discourages me a bit. I don't feel that enthusiasm. And since I'm a person who is naturally enthusiastic about everything, that was a very important reading for me. So I said, Ana, don't you want to post a month? Don't post me. Don't do it. Don't worry. So I live very well with that. Two years ago or so, I didn't live so well. There was a lot of guilt there. I still have. I still have. to get to more brides, especially to the brides I want to get to. But it's a job and I'm not going to get frustrated about it, but I'm respecting myself. I'm respecting myself, I'm respecting my time and it goes that way. It's still there, it's my mantra, as I say, I don't have a store open to the public, I still want to work in this register, I don't know if one day I'll stop working in this register, but I'm not going to be a slave to Instagram. What I'm doing there right now is for fun, and I'll tell you more, in the last month I've felt that I'm gaining enthusiasm, so I'm... You've made the videos many times. Yes, because I'm playing more, and I'm doing it for myself. I'm doing it for myself, with people who tell me a lot, and I want to do more editorial jokes, the last one I did was with your wife, it was brutal, I really enjoyed the joke of meeting here. I really like to meet teams, I really like to do this coordination work. One day I had to think if this could be a regular job, which it should be, which is being able to live from gathering people, establishing timelines, and then everyone is at 9, 9.30 doing this and that, but always in a good mood, and then, because you always exceed expectations, and joining a creative team during a day and playing, my God, which is a dream, it's a dream. Yes, when you have this opportunity to bring people together, it's a cool thing, and I'm also a person of people, and when you really manage to do that, when you manage to bring everyone together, regardless of the result, it's already cool. So when the result still exceeds expectations, it's incredible. And the process. Yes, the result is very important. Of course it's important to get to the end of an editorial, in which you dedicated a few months of thought, and you were there bringing together a team, where everyone has their expectations, so you have to manage those expectations, get to the end and have the work, I don't know, this editorial that I did with your wife on my father's sailboat, it was amazing, we had two sailboats, I don't know if it should be Rio, Douro, in Ribeira, playing and passing beers from one sailboat to another, we had a film and video team in one, we had a film and video team in another, we had Magali, who is that woman I love as a model, so, the line between all the crazy things and a few more, and that game, I really love it, because you managed people during the day, they had a good time, at least the return, they had a fun day, and then, this process already gives me so much, that, of course, I want to see the result. Of course, without the result it wouldn't be the same thing. But the process. The process is amazing. I have to see how I can do it too. Yes, you know that I... To explore these processes more. To be a bit esoteric on my part, I recently saw a video in which a guy said, you are never happy in the future, you are happy now, if you want to be happy now, because you will never live the future, you will always live in the present. And this difference between the result and the process, I think it's something we forget a lot. Sometimes we are constantly looking for the result. We forget to enjoy the process. Even in this question of marriage, of being such a seasonal position, sometimes we are so excited about what's coming, about the next year, about the next months, and I often suffer with this, that you are always waiting for the next phase. And it's so easy to forget the now, but this is where you live. Rui, facing this now, since we are a bit more profound, facing the finitude of life in the first hand, of course I had cancer, and there is a before and after. There is a brutal loss of innocence when you receive a diagnosis of this type, in which you don't know if tomorrow, when you are eating a lot, it will really exist or not. So you really learn, you learn quickly that you have to live in the now. And then there is another moment, when my mother dies in my arms. You can't not live in the here and now. We all go there, you see? We all go through that. So we have to be happy today, in the process, in the here. We can't always be projecting. That's why I told you, finally, I'm glad that I am myself and I managed to gather the strength to play and to be in contact. And you are doing a lot for this, Rui. You are creating here a community of people. I listened to all your podcasts, how good of a nerd I am. So it was you. It was me, I listened to them all. I loved meeting people that I only knew by name, and others I didn't even know by name. And I see that you have around you many beautiful people. I realized something very funny with these podcasts that I listened to yours, that there is a common denominator in all of us, even though we are in different arts. There is so much that was said by the people you already invited that I say, wow, how funny, they also suffer in the same way, or they also face it this way. And so I think this sense of community that you are doing, which was something I said at the beginning of our conversation, which I will continue to tell you, is incredible. And I would like to continue now and focus on the process and not so much on the result. Without a doubt. Thank you for the words, and I am glad it was you that listened to them all. I have to stop saying this joke because this is really going much better than I ever imagined. In the first episodes with André I used to joke a lot about the 7 people that listened to us, but suddenly we did a month of episodes, a month of podcast, and now I have 200 people listening which is absolutely unbelievable. I never thought that would happen. But I think this was that validation, that answer that I thought existed but I wasn't sure. I felt a lack of community. I felt a lack of conversation. I felt a lack of sharing my problems with people that from a professional perspective could understand me. Of course, if I talk to my friends from other areas about my problems they can be empathetic enough to talk about it. But when I talk to you, to Sofia, to André, to Ivo, to Susana, to anyone I talk to that is in this area, it is easier for you to understand this. And I think there is that issue of tribe. When we get together you feel that you are not alone. And just that, you don't have to solve the problem, but just feeling that you are not alone I think is worth it. It has been amazing. And I have felt this need in Cake Design. Going back to the world of cakes, we are not far from the same reality. We are not far from the same reality. I, sometimes, as I like to study a lot, and there it is, believe it or not, I always come to this more scientific side, which is to understand how are the cake designers in our country. So I do some surveys, I analyze this data, and I try to extrapolate it to my population that follows, in the workshops, above all, that are colleagues. How are they, if they are men or women, how are they? They are not well. They are, many times, working from home. Most of the people who do Cake Design in this country work from home, in their home kitchen, alone, isolated. And they are not well. When you ask yourself what is the big entry to be successful, people tell me, what is the biggest entry to success in your profession? They don't tell me so much that it is, I don't know, the market. No, they say, it's my self-esteem. So I put a series of options there, and I already put self-esteem there, because it is something that I have given a lot of importance. I think everyone is aware of mental health issues. So, when I see that the big spectrum of those who follow me in the workshops have a problem with self-esteem, I realize that there really is to make highlights. I did, two years ago, some free chat rooms online, on Zoom. And I opened those chat rooms for us to talk. And there were, I don't know, about 30 people having that space, a little bit, to talk. Of course, that then involves time that I stopped having. You do it like that, in moments that you had a little more time, and unfortunately I stopped having. But one of my goals is to put this self-esteem in me, in my colleagues. I'm not saying that it's perfect. I have moments, and at this moment mine is not in the best place. It has to be, I'm working on it. And try to realize that together we are so much more. Because we are all very isolated. People don't want to reach out. I don't know. There it is, it has to do with these trusts. Yes, because you can apply that to 99% of the professionals. I mean, the professionals. Of course, the salary is different. But this type of areas, photography, video, maybe florists, DJs, a lot of these people, we almost all work alone. Always. In micro-companies, or in micro-groups. Most of them are couples. And I think what you're saying is a reality. That's what we all feel. That's why when we have, as a whole, when we have events, if we give ourselves sometimes to investment, whether it's money or time, you really feel, and from those I've been to over the years, when people meet, we all look like little dogs drooling. You really feel the lack of connection. And I think COVID came to intensify this in a brutal way. I think maybe we still haven't left, our heads still haven't left those limitations of isolation. And I'd like for us to start getting together more. Not to talk, as we've done, as I've done here with you, but physically, to get together to share the pain, to share the tools. And I think it's undoubtedly one of the most important things at the moment. Because there's a lot of people talking in that sense, as you say. It's growth. I think right now part of my growth goal is to be with people. I'm not just talking about friends, I'm the kind of person who likes to get together on a birthday. We're 80, fantastic. I like it. I'm that boring person who says, why don't you come? I'll pick you up. There you are, that's enough. And also, in this world of work, I want to be with more people. I want to be more creative. I want to understand what I'm understanding with your podcasts. I want to understand in person. I want to give a hug. When someone gets frustrated, you know, I'm like that too. If someone doesn't want a hug, they'll tell me they don't want to. Because I want to give people space, because I feel like we're... Instead of being... I don't know if you have experience or not, but the pandemic should have brought us much closer. I think it took us away. The first stresses I had at the cake shop were post-pandemic. Those less pleasant situations I had were after the pandemic. They were moments when I thought that we, who saw each other up close, or in the death of close family members, or people we knew, or even, I don't know, nothing happened around us, but we were aware of what happened. And I thought, wow, that should only have brought us closer. And I think we're a little bit further away. But maybe a lot of people are thinking in this direction, of getting closer. I agree with you. I think it should have and I believe it will, but I think we're still going out. I think we're still going through that process. I hope so. I hope so. Let's go. You spoke a little while ago. About success. I'd like to ask you this question. How do you define your success? At each moment, at the moment, however you want, but how do you define it? For me, it's easy, because it's being happy. For me, my success is unique. It's being happy in the moment I'm in. So, if I'm happy doing the work I want to do, I'm very successful. With myself. Now, if I'm completely satisfied in this moment, as I said, I'm in a transition phase and I have a lot of doubts. And I'm realizing that it's being very difficult to be in that success I want to be in, which is making the cakes I want to make. What do I keep getting? I ask for the budget for naked cakes with gypsophila. I ask for it every day, but I haven't answered the budget yet. What is that white cake with gypsophila? I have nothing against that white cake with gypsophila, but it's not the place I want to live in. For me, that's not going to be a success. Let me just ask you this question. What is gypsophila? Oh, okay. I'm not a big fan of flowers. It's that little white thing, very small, you know, that you see everywhere. I hadn't even realized that it was a flower. For all the florists watching, I'm sorry, I didn't know. And now the florists will say, oh, gypsophila is a new flower. It's a... It's an account that I have nothing against. I like it a lot, but I don't want to keep making naked cakes with gypsophila. It's something I did in the first cake I made. Now that I think that I bring this creative part and this identity that I was creating, for me, the success would be to always have someone saying, Ana, make the wedding cake that you want. Sometimes I have people who fully trust me, but most of the time, especially in the world of birthdays, in weddings, I get a lot of ideas and I would like it to be more and more for my identity. Of course, let's stop being romantic and say it's just my happiness. For me, success is closing an accounting year with a positive balance that I have paid for the 11 months of work, and I also pay for my vacations. That's it. I am more ambitious than earning the minimum wage. And so, I don't know if you know how many 50-euro cakes I would have to sell to have the national minimum wage. 484 cakes. So, it's 484 cakes for 50 euros. I know these numbers by heart because I give them to my students in Management, Logistics and Specification. These are numbers that I talk to them about and they get a bit shocked. My success doesn't happen because of that kind of ambition. It's not that I have something against it. I think that, at the moment, there are a lot of life costs in this country. We are very outdated in terms of salary. But that's what I talk a lot with my students, and for them success would probably be selling those 484 cakes per year. For me, it was a question they asked me on the first day. When I started the project, I was lucky to have my father, who is an economist, and my brother-in-law, who is a genius of numbers. I also like numbers a lot, and they asked me a simple question. Do you want more cakes to be sold in Porto? Or do you want to have a quality time around each of the projects and maybe focus more on, I don't like to say the best cakes, but you know, the cakes that have a bit more thought behind them. And I didn't hesitate at that moment to say that I want to be the one who sells 20 wedding cakes or 10 wedding cakes, I don't say 10, but 20, 25, more than the 484 cakes I'm making. So, with that question, I don't know if tomorrow I'll change my mind. I'm always reserving, I don't know if the cake shop project won't go through something like that. But for now, no. For now that I'm alone, I'll go through it, I'll dedicate myself entirely to those projects. So, for success, and to sum up the answer, I hope you're always happy doing what I like, and that the project goes in the direction I've always wanted to go, to be by my husband's side, and not have to massify, being me the only person behind it, and to be able to earn a decent salary, which is very difficult in cake design. I know you're going to talk about photography and video, but look, I just received an email that I'm trying to process in response to my budget from yesterday. With all due respect, obviously, to people's budgets, there are people who get married in cool places. But the wedding cake, even though it has this pomp, and you started the podcast saying that it's the symbol, and that it's this, in your head it is, and in mine too. But in general, they want fireworks, and everything else, but we don't want to pay for the service. So, a cake that I had priced for 700 euros, the answer was, it's very nice to say that, unfortunately, they didn't have the budget, which I completely respect, but I went further and asked if they could please tell me what the budget would be, to see if there was any way for us, creatively, to try to adapt, even if it's the number of slices. If a celebration is at midnight, and you've been eating since noon, you don't even need cake for 150 people, or 100 people, you need a little less. And we can, sometimes, change people's budgets. It's not something I usually do, but I did this week. And the answer was that the budget was 280 euros. And 280 euros, I leave the macro without that, in ingredients and a little more. Do you understand? So, I can't give an answer to these requests, which are 95% of the budget I have. Of course there will be a cake designer who will sell the cake for that amount, I have nothing against the colleague, but it doesn't matter, that's it. And it's all right. That point you were talking about a while ago, and Ivo talks about it in his episode, which is the issue of raising the tide, raising all the boats. And I think there are two things that end up being difficult to deal with. One of them is the question you asked at the beginning of your answer about the money we want to earn. Most of us, especially those who are in this more artistic area, it is very difficult for an artist with a mind, with an artist spirit, to put a price on their work. And usually when you do it, you always do it low, because you feel you are an impostor, you put self-esteem, you put people's insecurities, and then you have no chance of people putting a value. Then there is the other difficulty that most artists have, which is dealing with numbers. There are exceptions, but it is rare. And all those accounts you make. And then that point of just saying, I want to make money because I need to make money, I like to make money because I like to do things. So you need to be honest with that part. And when you are, I think it can be difficult. But I have other different examples. You have Primark and Louis Vuitton. And some time ago I investigated more or less their revenues. Of the values ​​themselves, they were thousands of millions, naturally. But they were very close, curiously. They were very close. One of them would be 20% above the other. The point is, Primark and Louis Vuitton are completely opposite things. Both make a lot of money. But you have to decide which one you want to be. That question that I asked you. Do you want to make a lot and charge less? And will you do more of the same? Will you not be able to give the same attention to quality? Or do you want to make a few? Do a lot better? And maybe you will have a better level of quality for us as individual artists. I think it's a difficult point. It's a point that for me is very easy to talk about. I'm not going to tell you that in the beginning it was so easy. But I started on the first day to give that answer. So, when you start on the first day to give that answer, you realize where you have to stay in this stratosphere. So, when I tell my management students that they have to do a market study. I don't say, you're going to do a market study. I receive people from everywhere. People from outside, from Switzerland, France. People from the islands, from the middle of the Azores, rural. Do you understand? I really receive people from everywhere. So, you have to study your market. It's not worth it for me to tell you a specific name. And it's not for you to compare yourself. It's for you to position yourself. I don't know if comparing and positioning, I see this as different things. So, it's not for you to then change your value to use it against what you already have in your area. Of course, I had to do a market study here. You know I'm in Burguens, Santo Tirso. I don't sell a single cake in Burguens, Santo Tirso. That's what it is. So, I studied what was there. Obviously, I did my study. I like numbers a lot, I like math a lot, I like statistics a lot. So, it wasn't hard for me to do that. But to understand, ok, that's fine. I'll have to go to other types of locations. Let's try. I didn't know if it was going to work or not. We never know. We're going to launch ourselves without fear. And my students, I really say, of course they're in a rural world. I'm not going to tell them that the wedding cake they sell is 700 euros. We're going to have to go a little further. Maybe they're going to have to offer some snacks to complement the order they have. Maybe they're going to have to do another type of work to be able to live in a dignified way. But, here's the thing. I know that there will probably be other people in the area also with the same difficulty. But when you have a large part of the funds to include in the catering, in the wedding cake, you already have a small niche. You have very valid colleagues. I'm training a lot of people in wedding cakes. And I have colleagues who didn't do training and who also have incredible careers. So, when at a certain point you don't know how to do accounts for those reasons you said, because they're artists, because it costs them, because they look around and see other people doing it cheaper. When all of this is what causes you to give a final number to the client, it's all badly done. Mathematics is filling gaps there. So, I see things in such a simple way, which is my Excel. I always say, my Excel doesn't lie. And we work on Excel in class. It's this. And if you want to do this, do it. If you don't want to, don't do it. And now I'm going to talk about something very curious. I have very few male students. Most of them. I have pastry chefs who specialize in cake design. But I don't have cake designers, boys, men, I don't have that many. And it's interesting, I've done a lot of cake design training. There's an incredible difference between the girls. You say to a boy who's starting, look, the wedding cake is 700 euros. The boy comes and gives the client 700 euros and the client accepts it. Okay? Or he doesn't accept it, but he sends it. Most of my students will struggle, I'm generalizing this because I've noticed this, I'm not saying it like it's an exercise, look, it's an assumption. This is what happens, because then I have the return of my students. And they can't even get 500 euros. They can't, Rui. Why? Because the groom is waiting to spend 200, which is what you spend in the supermarket. And you want to work. And you don't want to know if the labor will be returned or not. So, of course I've been through frustrating moments here. And once, and never again, but once I ended up saying something in a polite way, which was, look, I think that's why he can get a cake on the continent. And I'll tell you why. I was just starting, and there it is. Sometimes we're not in the best headspace. Continental cakes at the moment, which are cakes with two layers of cake, a vegetable cream and a strawberry on top, and chocolate egg, which are cakes that aren't decorated, Rui, that you go there and buy, are already 20 euros a kilo. And I have colleagues, cake designers, selling at 13 and 12 euros a kilo. Do you realize where we are on this level? Of course the groom will say, OK, I want a cake for 100 people, so it's going to be 10 kilos. I want to spend 150, 200 euros. Do you realize it's a little coffee? A little coffee. You take a little coffee there or you have a slice of personalized cake in which you did everything from scratch. So, we're very, I don't know, look, I don't live in that place of frustration, attention, I live in that place where people knew how to do the math. They really knew how to do the math to live in a way worthy of this. Even because I think it would be better for them. It would be better for everyone if you could pay your labor and you have a salary at the end of the month. Once I had a girl here, tears fell, because she said, Ana, I fill up the gas tank and pay my son's child support. Do you understand? In other words, she, with every weekend, every holiday, every day, crazy, full time working, she had about 400 euros in her pocket. And this, I can tell you, I can, here, because I ask in the surveys what is the revenue, what is the value that they think, that the students think, and she's in that house. Wow, do you understand? Yes. You can't get to the minimum wage. To get to the minimum wage, you have to make 484 cakes of 50 euros, in a regime where you pay social insurance and you're all right, right? So, in that regime, I tell you, there aren't many people who want to earn the minimum wage. There aren't, there aren't. And so, what happens? If we all had, like, you say, Moana, but you could, maybe your aspiration, of course, my aspiration is not that, I already told you, and I think last year I already concluded a little bit that it will be difficult to overcome that invoicing alone. But, it's not easy, because there are a lot of people working very well on the wedding cakes without doing the math. Do you understand? There aren't a lot of people really doing the math, saying, no, it's 700 euros, because I'm going to pay 23% VAT, so it's 160 euros of VAT. So, then I have social insurance, then I have, I don't know what, then I have my direct expenses, my indirect expenses, then I want this, which is for what? To work 11 months and have 12 months paid, because I want to take my holidays paid per year. And this exercise, no one does it. What exercise do they do? They go to Excel and calculate the price of the dough of the fillings a little more. And that's it. Look, it's, it's, it's the wheel, we walk here, we don't walk badly, we don't walk badly at all, but, but that's it. There is a path of professionalization that we have to do, because really the advantage of marriage is this, it is very easy to enter, it is very easy to, to make money, to start making money, and then there is a, it all depends on your relationship you have with money. If for you, you come from, you have another job, you earn 800, 900 euros per month, whatever, it's very easy you say, if I earn, if I, for a month, 40 hours a week, in four weeks, four weeks, if I earn 40 hours a week, in four weeks, in four weeks, four and a half weeks, I can do, I earn 900 euros, if I work half a dozen hours, I earn 200, I earn 300, it's amazing. I just want you to say that it is, sooner or later, it will blow you up with happiness, it will, it will become unbearable, you will have to make choices, and if you take that thought, if you even decide, this is going so well for me, that I'm even going to leave my job and I'm going to do this full-time, it's amazing, it's amazing, it's amazing, it's amazing, it's amazing, it's amazing, it's amazing, it's amazing, that same thought, that it was super interesting, to do that half a dozen hours, if you bring it to the full-time, you will blow up in two weeks, because it's absolutely unbearable, you have, in other areas, photography, video, all of that, you still have guys who do, and DJs, who do, I don't know, 600, 700, 800, 900 euros, in a wedding. Well, everything is fine. But, if you do that, full-time, it can work when you are young, when you are starting. If you do that, when you have a house to pay for, when you have a family, when you want to pay the taxes, when you want to do all those things, it will be working to warm up. And then, when you start for 900 euros, it's very difficult, you go to the double, to the triple, or to those values, that you want to be. And, it's hard to go up, it's hard to leave, because, when you do, when you have that client, it's hard to go to the other. And it's hard for us, because you have to say, that it's not what you are used to, to go to a place, where you don't know if you will be well received. And, this creates a series of difficulties, that it's not easy to manage. No, no, you're talking about magnitude of values, that sometimes, we have to, I do the translation here, to the cakes, and for sure, there is that market, right? Like, the grooms, that really come, in the wedding cake, something more, than, of course, sugar and flour. And they appreciate, the creative process behind, and all the effort, that sometimes, it's a year, that we go there, exchanging messages. But it's very hard, for us to reach, that magnitude, of net values, that is, because, what I'm telling you, and when you give a budget, like mine, which is 700 euros, for 100 people, well, at a given time, it's what I say, 23% income, it's a lot of money. The macro account, with the biological eggs, the biological carrot, the raspberries, all of that, is a lot of money. You leave the macro, with at least 250 euros, at a given time, I'm not talking about, earning, 900 euros in that cake, right? I'm earning, I'm saying, that maybe, there are 230 euros, at hand, that I'll be there, three or four days, working. So, they are things, on the scale, that I think, are very fair, fair even, of course, but I always have, my goal, always very high, where I would like to be, positioned. I'm not there, I'm far from being there. I appreciate, well, a dear one, saying that, well, that you like my work, and I don't know what, and that you see things, in the light you see, in the prism you see, but I don't see that, at all, right? I'm not where I want to be. Well, and, therefore, if one day, I want to have, a wedding cake, in 2018, well, 2,000 euros, I don't know, or 3,000, I have no idea, in the market, here in Portugal, if there will be, if there will be people, because we are not going to make cakes, out there, right? We really have to limit ourselves, a little bit, here. I made a cake, once, for a wedding in England, but it was from a friend. So, here in Portugal, you really had to be there, with, with that audience, which I appreciate, maybe it's part of what you said, maybe the success, would even go through, by being really recognized, that the process, behind it, deserves it, but I'm not there, so, you don't see me there. That's the good part, I think we go through that, and wanting more, and wanting better, and wanting to be in a different place, I think it's also part of the ambition, and the good part. And, naturally, we talk about the prices, in our areas, the values, in themselves, are different. Yesterday, I was talking to, with a colleague of ours, the wedding planner, who told me that, the Palácio de Queluz, in Lisbon, was completely full for this year, and it was completely full for the next one, because they are really cheap, and they only charge 15,000 euros, for the rent, only. They could charge 30, 35, 40 or 50. So, only the rent, that's why. It's obvious that we are, you always have someone, who can be, in a magnitude of values, that are completely, unrealistic, for our reality. But, the truth is that, I also, we have colleagues in Portugal, in photography and video, charging, 10, 15, 20, 30,000 euros per wedding, which, at this moment, is also something, for me, astronomical. It's incredible, it's spectacular. But the fantastic, and what I sometimes, miss about this feeling, of community, is that you say, ok, I look at this, and I say, spectacular, now, how do I get there too? But, at the same time, I know, of cases, in which, some of these colleagues, started saying that, their colleagues, think that they are charging more. That is, instead of looking and saying, this photographer is charging 30,000, incredible, how do I get there? You have a friend who says, 30,000 euros, that's a lot of money, I don't do that, that's a lot of money. Of course, it has to do with you, it has to do with your insecurities, it has to do with your relationship with money, and these are much more complex things, than what we can, solve with two tricks. But I think it's an inner work, that we should all do. Money is just a tool. What you're going to do with it, is with you. Exactly. No, I think, I see things the other way around. It's exactly like you said, and the opposite of who says, oh, I want to charge too much. I, if I think that my work, is in my, I, if I do, a quotation of 700 euros, and I know that most of it, is doing 200, it's because I already think, that 700 euros, for me it's fair, because they correspond to that Excel, that I told you about, and more than Excel, to the mathematical model, that I created, that I teach my students, which is to know, how much is, what is the monthly projection, of the order, that is, it's very easy, I do Excel, and the bills, the eggs, the flour, the sugar. More difficult, is to understand, how many cakes, of this format, and for that, I made a mathematical model, with some variables, which also consider the taxes, etc., for me to understand, the amount of wedding cakes, the amount of cakes, of 50 euros, that I have to make, for that salary. Of course, if there's someone, selling wedding cakes, here in Portugal, for 2,000 euros, 3,000 euros, I can look at them, and I'll never tell them, it's too expensive. How am I going to tell, to an artist, right? Like, look, you crossed your mind, like, it's too expensive. No, I'll never tell them, wow, okay, how good, that you value yourself, and that they buy you, that cake, for 2,000 euros, 3,000 euros, right? And I'm on a path, Rui, now, which is, more than 2,000 to 3,000, it's not that far, it's that they come looking for me, for me to make, then, wings to my creativity, and then, be able to express myself, in the wedding cake, the way I think, that those grooms, manifest themselves with me, do you understand? In the taste test, in our meetings, in Zoom, or whatever. That, at this moment, I don't know why, it's always been in the same register. So, that can also be my fault. I try, on Instagram, in my mantra, not to show naked cakes. Or if I do, it's a small cake, or something like that, a joke. It's not the naked wedding cake. I haven't shared it for a long time. Even so, it's what they ask for. So, I must be doing something else wrong. I think there's a process, there's a time of... There's a time, yes. So, I have a question, that you already said a while ago, that you don't... You don't usually look at it like that, but I'm going to challenge you to do it. Which is, what do you see, in the future? Concretely, what can you see, if you see anything, in professional terms? Look, yes, even though I say that I don't look at the future in a very closed way, I have plans, I, being an enthusiast, I like to be thinking about things to do, that make me, well, that make me happy. And, it's going to go through people. I have that more and more present. I have a project there, that I don't talk about much, because it doesn't happen, and it doesn't happen, and it doesn't happen. We closed that project seven years ago, we signed that project. It's hard to see it come to light, not by us, but by all the bureaucracies of this country and the other. And, so, it's going to go through there. It's going to go through meeting people, being with people, from the world, whoever you want, probably, as well. So, I don't know. Maybe, it's going to be where I'll be able to finally fulfill all my passions. I have several, don't I? Everything in this life almost makes me fall in love. So, I think my project, maybe, I don't know if I'm going to keep the wedding cakes, if I'm not going to keep the wedding cakes. I think it's always going to go through learning, because I also come to the conclusion, at my age, that I'm giving classes since I was 18, always, more years, less years, in the middle of a break. So, it's always going to go through these sharing spaces. And, gastronomy, probably, will also be there. But, I think it's going to be broader. I think it's going to be, I don't know. Look, I have many dreams. If I'm always going to be at the wedding cakes, it's very possible that I won't. But, I don't know. I don't know. It depends on the time, the management, my ability to call, to let this take off with wings, to let this continue to be treated like a baby, even though he's already a primary school boy. Rapazote. Rapazote. Look, but it was a good question. Rui, I really enjoyed our conversation. You're a dear one. You know how much Elsa loves your wife. And so, this year, if we had the opportunity to play, I wanted to give you a hand to help in whatever I can, cake or out of cake, to be part of this incredible community that you're being a hero and a very interesting point, Rui. Thank you. I have to thank you. It was a great pleasure and now, a curiosity. You didn't say, Mónica, once, what you thought would be the title of this episode. Ah, but I can finish. I remember. Rui, let me tell you, if someone is still listening to us, I was very afraid that this would be a hand full of nothing. And, as our Portuguese podcast, because I also use his podcasts, I hope that, beyond this hand, it will be nothing. I don't know if there's anything else I can do to help, right? You really are a dear, but you're also a chroma. And living with you, and talking to you as much as we do, and that idea that you had, that you had little to share, or little to say, is so absurd that I had to remind you of this, because what we all leave from here, me included, and I think everyone listening to us, is going to take a handful of a lot of things. I think that's true for all of us. I'm here, with my head, also thinking about a number of things because of this conversation, but it's always that, what I think is interesting, when you share what you live, what you experienced, your opinions, there will be someone who will listen to what you said. And yesterday I recorded an episode with Susana, that will only be out in two weeks, after yours, sometimes there are these things, but she told me a very funny detail, that she had a conversation with a colleague 8 or 9 years ago, a normal conversation, a very normal advice, and that recently, 1 or 2 years ago, that same colleague told her that because of that little phrase, that little advice, she decided a certain path, that brought her a lot of happiness, a lot of success. And what I feel in these conversations, and the sharing of your life path, your professional path, your experience, there's always something that we share, there's always something that you say, that I'm absolutely sure will resonate with someone, and maybe in 5, 6, 10 years, you'll be able to hear that it was because of what you said that I did this. And this is what I feel in the community, it's really this. Let's share our pain, let's share what we learned, and we'll be better like this. Thank you, Rui, for creating this space. I think it's very good. It's growth, it's learning, so here you'll have me listening to each of your podcasts, okay? I'm very lucky, Rui. Thank you, Lana. You're welcome. Look, a kiss for you, for Elsa too, and for everyone who listened to us. A kiss to everyone. Be happy. Kisses. Bye, bye. Bye, bye. We've reached the end of this episode, and if you liked it, I ask you to subscribe to the podcast, and see you next week.